Forum Discussion
Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?
I'd like to know how the incomprehensible change in stylus behaviour, which severely impacts those who primarily input with pen, was ever considered a positive?
The multiple adverse effects are cropping up via user complaints, which a quick web search will reveal. Rather than provide a summary list I can illustrate the ill-thought out nature of the change using just one example.
Pen flicks and navigation has been rendered completely unusable but yet is still a component part of Windows 10. Personally I've relied on pen flicks as a productivity tool for as long as I've been a pen user - which is now over ten years. At a stroke, ironically, this feature has been broken through incompetence or neglect - either fit so take your pick.
Please provide an answer or even better a timetable for reversing this calamity.
Regards
Patrick
P.S. Any typos entirely the fault of the 2nd incomprehensible decision to replace the fully featured on-screen keyboard with a finger friendly but condensed keyboard. Doesn't the Windows 10 engineering team have any pen-centric members on board?
Please please provide an off switch for the new pen scrolling/panning feature. It breaks SO MANY things!
The work-around with having to hold the right click pen barrel button is really awful because: 1. That's supposed to open a context sensitive menu. 2. Having to hold the button means having to hold the pen differently. 3. Some Windows 10 tablet pens (such as the Samsung Galaxy Book) do not have a right-click barrel button so in those cases many functions are actually impossible. 4. It's extremely unintuitive. Previously, I could tap & drag everything with ease... move files, rearrange start menu tiles, resize calendar appointments, drag/drop whatever. Now doing those types of things are much more difficult and much less efficient. It's a huge crutch on our workflows.
The new behavior also interferes heavily with the Wacom drivers used in Wacom pen displays, the Wacom MobileStudio Pro, and the new HP Zbook x2. Thankfully, those devices have a checkbox in the driver to disable "Windows Ink", however when the Windows Ink is in use, the new pen scrolling behavior causes major problems. For example, an easy repro scenario is to right click the address bar in Micosoft Edge using the pen's barrel button (Wacom hardware with Windows Ink on)... The whole system will become unresponsive after that right click. I've reproduced this on 2 devices as well as a workstation with a pen display plugged in. It affects other things too like not being able to move objects in InDesign, causing hangs in Adobe Bridge, etc.
I've also got a few tablets that use the Microsoft N-Trig pens and those have issues as well, but do not have the advantage of being able to switch off "Windows Ink". It's really made the pen interface into a terrible user experience.
There are a bunch of videos here of how bad the UX was in back in July when this new behavior was first being introduced to Windows Insiders. Some of those were fixed somewhat, but it still shouldn't have been released without an off switch. It should have been an Opt-In feature I think.
I hope an off switch will be available before the "Current Branch for Business" gets the Fall Creators Update!
Here's some more feedback hub links:
This one is very important: "Always provide off switch for terrible new features"
https://aka.ms/Fg7wme
Hi, I have the very same issue. But for me it's much worse than just being unable to select text on a webpage.
After the Fall Creators update pen behaves not like it should be. Instead of the precise selection tool it became just another finger. I can't quickly select text on a webpage by just clicking and dragging. I can't select files in file explorer the same way anymore.
But all of this just fades away comparing to how pen now behaves in Adobe Illustrator. It seams that very often Illustrator register pen input like touch input making it impossible to do any kind of precise work without zooming in a lot.
Here is the video I've captured https://youtu.be/EC7wFT81WN4
As you can see, first I'm trying to select a line with the pen with no luck in 100% tries. After 0:40 I've switched to touchpad and the line is selected in 100% of tries. It's ridiculous that i have to use touchpad for drawing. And it is very crucial for me, because it's my job which I can't do anymore. I'm using pen enabled devices from the times Steve Jobs was not back at Apple yet. When I saw the first iPad presentation I laughed because of him saying that no one needs a pen and so I was using only Windows tablets. But now I see the things are going around: iPad has a pen, and my Surface Book looks like it does not. I'm not even saying about promises to bring the New Surface Pen's tilt support and Surface Dial on-screen functionality. I have no hope for it any more. But I have not expected that I will loose the basic pen functionality. Why I even bothered buying all this stuff if it does not work?
Pen issues are not only ones I have after updating my Surface Book but it will take to much of time and space to describe them all. I've already posted some feedback, but no luck - issues are never fixed. To resolve some issues I've done "Reset this PC" without saving any files, but instead of fixing issues I've got couple more. I've installed latest driver pack for the Surface Book, I've tried troubleshooting from Settings app. Changed batteries in the pen. Tried installing WinTab drivers, but uninstalled them, because you can already find reports of them not working correctly. I even tried to use another pen (I have every generation lying around). Nothing helped.
This is the question of life and death, because now I can't do my job with the Surface Book
Here is the link to the feedback https://aka.ms/Q7t2ad
Hi,
Pen flicks (Windows component) was used as an indisputable example to ensure I could avoid being fobbed off with "it's just a question of the third party software maker needing to update their drivers".
The negative impact this unfathomable change has caused has also stopped me using my software editing suite, which is part of my job, so you're not alone.
I've not yet received a reply from the Windows Ink team but I'll update here and also in the Edge forum, here;
https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/issues/14277341/
where this issue is also causing a lot of anger.
- I've sent an e-mail to WindowsInk@Microsoft.com too
also i've created feedback https://aka.ms/Wpzj9h about not being able to select text on a webpage a month ago - just 11 upvotes and no reaction
Just want to add myself to the list of Wacom tablet users who are suffering since switching to Windows 10.
Symptoms like:
Can't drag and drop between windows
Can't right-click drag (for instance when you want to move instead of copy file)
Sometimes my cursor turns into a gigantic 2-headed arrow when I hover over the edge of a window.
Can't select text, neither body text nor browser URL bar text
In some field input windows, a handwriting box pops up
Right click on the desktop produces a circle/ring that appears briefly
I'm sure there are more that I can't recall at this time, but these are the biggies. Didn't have ANY of these issues in Windows 7, once I configured it properly.
I'm 94 hours into troubleshooting a week old installation on a new PC build, numerous issues. The stylus issue is minor compared to some major issues, like hardware not working at all, but is a constant (and sometimes dangerous) annoyance that causes me to accidentally move folders or files sometimes due to this quirky behavior.
I have the following code in our WindowProc routine that is supposed to detect if an event is a touch event and whether or not the event originated from a pen input device:
#define TOUCH_MASK 0x00000080
#define SOURCE_MASK 0x000000FF
#define SIGNATURE_MASK 0xFFFFFF00
#define MI_WP_SIGNATURE 0xFF515700
#define IsPenDevice(dw) (((dw) & TOUCH_MASK) == 0)
#define IsTouchDevice(dw) (((dw) & TOUCH_MASK) == TOUCH_MASK)
#define IsTouchEvent(dw) (((dw) & SIGNATURE_MASK) == MI_WP_SIGNATURE)
// Is this a pen or touch input message
LPARAM lMessageExtraInfo = GetMessageExtraInfo();
BOOL bPenInput = (IsTouchEvent(lMessageExtraInfo) && IsPenDevice(lMessageExtraInfo)) ? TRUE : FALSE;
BOOL bTouchInput = (IsTouchEvent(lMessageExtraInfo) && IsTouchDevice(lMessageExtraInfo)) ? TRUE : FALSE;
This has worked perfectly on all supported currently Microsoft operating systems (e.g., Windows 7, Windows 8[.1], and Windows 10) since it was implemented in March of 2014. Since the Windows 10 Fall Creator’s Update we have received numerous customer complaints (and confirmed them to be accurate) that the pen input reacts and behaves like a single finger touch event. This would indicate that IsPenDevice(…) macro is returning FALSE. That would imply that your pen device handler (not the driver, but your handling of driver I/O) is not propagating the 0x80 bit to the message queue.
Our user base is composed of roughly 500,000 users with a wide range of system configurations – many of which have selected the Microsoft Surface [Pro/Book/etc.] as their primary device. Since Microsoft updates tend to occur silently, many of those users are suddenly finding their pens as useless finger proxies. Your changes are affecting customers that are running older version of our product that are no longer under active support. This issue is more than just an inconvenience, it is a breaking change to existing functionality and behavior.
Having worked with Microsoft support (in various forms) since 1992, I am keenly aware of the glacial speed of getting fixes into the pipeline and out to the masses. Hotfixes are generally the quickest solution but have their own baggage. I know your cutoff for the next major rollout is probably already past. The FCU edition is one of the worst release I have seen (even surpassing Windows 8/8.1 and Vista).
Please provide me with C++ code snippets that will return the pen/touch functionality to its previous behavior.
P.S.
FWIW, this is just one of the MANY regressions in legacy Windows applications introduced in FCU.
Tim,
Might be worth re-posting your forensic post to the Edge forum below, as it looks like it is being actively monitored and to be frank I'm not sure this forum is. The issue has been recognised by the moderating Dev as being far wider than an isolated Edge issue alone and has undertaken to bring pressure to bear on the Ink team responsible for this dire decision.
https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/issues/14277341/#comment-50
Hello everyone. Microsoft has created a Collection in the feedback hub regarding this issue. So far 99 upvotes. Make sure you go there, upvote and add your comments. Hopefully they will revert this change or add option sooner rather than later.
Link: https://aka.ms/Bltdx5
Make sure they understand the scope of the changes, and not only scrolling. Text selextion, flicks, behaviour needs to be completely reverted.
- I would just like to add my voice that this update has completely destroyed my ability to use the CAD software my company uses. We don't use flicks but the pens dragging behaviour makes drawing almost completely impossible. At least this thread seems a bit more positive. On https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-touch/pen-scrolling-is-inconsistent-and-breaking-some/7950fdb1-a7a6-44ff-9119-1c5bdf8812c1?messageId=d03db2fc-96de-43a9-94a7-9187c27a5f5b
we are just being told "it must be our pen" or "roll back to an older version of windows"I use the music notation Finale and the pen supplied an extra level of precision. Now I cannot right click because the button is for selection only. What were they thinking? Oh right, they weren't...
I'd also like to voice my opinion about this issue as well. I wrecked my brain trying to figure out why my pen was working like the way it did. I thought it was some type of driver bug or something. I'm a fan of new and innovative experiences, but this has been the worse for me. I'm having the same exact issues as the other users are. I also honestly think it would've been genius to implement a "turn off" functionality for those who desire preference in the name of customization. Please Windows, let us have some customization where we can turn this thing off.
Happy Holidays
I totally agree with the comments on this page.
Why was this released without someone catching this obvious flaw is beyond me.
Breaking programs that manipulate graphics with handles is totally unacceptable and has seriously hampered the usefulness of my Surface when drawing. This should never have made it out the door.
When is the fix coming for this serious bug?
It's probably good to post full names/locations/videos of the applications/web-apps that the Fall Creators update has totally broken so that there's a good record of them all. I think Microsoft doesn't read the feedback hub very much, so having videos of the terrible user experience may be an easier way to see what's gone wrong. Here's a video of how working in Dreamweaver CC 2018 looks: https://twitter.com/adamzea/status/931562896793927681
For people with Wacom digitizers and Wacom drivers, there's a really cool way to disable or enable the awful new Windows Ink pen behavior only in specific programs. In the properties window, with the pen selected, you can add applications using the + button in the 3rd row, then select the application, and change the settings. This causes the settings to automatically change when that application is active AND this includes the "Windows Ink" checkbox. So since a right click of the pen with Windows Ink enabled in Microsoft Edge causes the whole system to crash, I can disable it when that application is in the foreground. I've also enabled Windows Ink for my Hyper-V virtual machine running the Insiders Fast build so that I can continue to test and see if they ever fix the pen behavior.
SourceURL:https://twitter.com/adamzea/status/940618239473745922
I wish all tablet PC devices had an off Switch. I'm on a Surface Pro 4. Is it possible to investigate if that option alters any particular registry key? So we at least can figure out a hack to completely disable it. Otherwize I guess my next tablet PC willl be a Wacom Mobile studio pro, or something like that.
There must be a way to manually Switch it off.
I have searched the registry like crazy trying to find something that would turn off the new behavior on a Surface Pro. No luck. :( I wish there was. Another alternative to the Wacom MobileStudio Pro that's coming out at the end of this month is the HP ZBook X2. It's pretty pricey, but that was made in partnership with Wacom, so it has their same drivers, pen, and programmable bezel buttons. Check out those specs though. :)
Patrick Lawless wrote:
I'd like to know how the incomprehensible change in stylus behaviour, which severely impacts those who primarily input with pen, was ever considered a positive?
The multiple adverse effects are cropping up via user complaints, which a quick web search will reveal. Rather than provide a summary list I can illustrate the ill-thought out nature of the change using just one example.
Pen flicks and navigation has been rendered completely unusable but yet is still a component part of Windows 10. Personally I've relied on pen flicks as a productivity tool for as long as I've been a pen user - which is now over ten years. At a stroke, ironically, this feature has been broken through incompetence or neglect - either fit so take your pick.
Please provide an answer or even better a timetable for reversing this calamity.
Regards
Patrick
P.S. Any typos entirely the fault of the 2nd incomprehensible decision to replace the fully featured on-screen keyboard with a finger friendly but condensed keyboard. Doesn't the Windows 10 engineering team have any pen-centric members on board?
Hi I want to chime in here too. I am just a plain old user not a creator or professional. I want Microsoft to know that this change on the pen is not just an inconvenience to the pro's who use the pen for a living its effecting the consumer who were happy highlighting text in a variety of apps. You have turned a $130 pen into a mouse. If i want to click and drag I will pull my windows 95 pc out of my storage shed and click and drag with my mouse all I want but here in 2018 i would like to go back to using my surface and pen. But to do that you need to give us back what you took.
Thanks
Jerry KohMicrosoft
Hello Patrick, I'm the GPM on the Interaction Platform team, and we're the folks who care a lot about the Pen experience in Windows. I'm sorry to hear that you are having a bad experience with Pen in Windows, and would love to hear more about your experience as well as anything you have found that we should know about. Please email us at WindowsInk@Microsoft.com so that we can dig into any issues you have encountered.
As for Pen flicks, that is a feature from that TabletPC edition of Windows. We did not remove it as there were still some users (like yourself who uses it), however, throughout the years we have started to retool the pen experience in Windows such that accelerators like flicks may no longer be useful/necessary. We would love to hear about the scenarios that you still continue to depend on pen flicks, perhaps there are additional things we can do in the navigation model that helps. Again, please email us at WindowsInk@microsoft.com.
thanks for continuing to use the Pen in Windows and help us make it better!
Hello Jerry,
Thanks for responding. I've dropped the Windows Ink team a lengthy email outlining the issues FCU has generated. I've mentioned you in despatches so hopefully I'll get a response from someone over the next few days.
The only point I wanted to take you up on was the behaviour of pen flicks following FCU. It is now uttrly impossible to use this feature full stop. What is so odd is to retain a feature called pen flicks which does not/cannot respond to a pen flick. It was this strange disconnect that I felt best represented the ill-thought through consequence of FCU on pen users rather than it being my only cause for concern.
As for using pen flicks - I use it as designed, meaning up until FCU it would be activated scores if not hundreds of times a day.
Regards
Patrick
Saw that 17063 dropped in the insider preview build fast ring. Did anyone have time to check if they fixed pen behaviour yet?
I couldn't find anything about it in the release notes.- can report no changes yet
Hey Microsoft. I got the perfect solution:
Revert back to old pen behaviour so professionals can get some actual work done with their styluses. And then start selling a capacitive Surface Crayon for people who want to use pen for scrolling.
This change is idiotic and needs to be fixed ASAP.
I already have a design proposal for the new surface crayon here.
I'm reluctantly reaching the conclusion this disastrous change will not be reversed. Unfortunately, complainants appear astonishingly few and far between. Despite 1,200 views there are only 12 contributors and I'm unable to find any other blogs etc. which have this issue cooking up a storm.
It appears the severe damage this change has visited upon professional pen centric users is just too small a sector to have MS spending resources/time either investigating or reversing. I have also tried reaching back out to Jerry Koh, having received no acknowledgment from the WindowsInk team, but his trail has now gone cold. I also messaged Rick Rodriguez of Surface Pro Artist thinking this change might have adversely impacted his work flow and a well-placed blog post would garner more attention than it seems this forum is able to. Again, no response leading to my reluctant conclusion.
As I'm unable to revert to Creators Update I am now forced to radically reassess my options as the pen interface is now simply unbearable on a daily basis As MS's unique pen functionality has now been degraded to such a degree it is no better than Apple's iPad pencil or Samsung's Galaxy Android Wacom stylus I can at least compare and contrast on an, albeit crippled, level playing field. No doubt a Wacom device will be required for my photoediting work but my mainstay tablet/mobility solutions no longer need be confined to the penabled Windos tablet of yesteryear or MS's next great hope, the Surface family.
The long and the short for me is a likely move away from Windows OS but alas not replicated in sufficient numbers for MS to notice or care.
If it is any comfort they did seem sincere in their earlier posts. I got a reply from WindowsInk on twitter earlier and hopefully they are looking in to it. I'm not giving up yet, but sticking with 1703 for now. (Which works as expected thankfully)
Only my old Surface has Fall Creators update on it so I can see if anything happens, regarding pen.
Even if we are a minority. I don't see any harm in adding options. I don't mind new features as long as they come with an off switch.Lots of websites AND APPS still don't have controls optimized for touch input. Especially interactive elements. For example the option to cut uploaded picture. Before Fall Creators update I would use pen for such controls. Now the pen starts scrolling instead of selecting.
Apps are now a nightmare. I use several that require specific use of the pen in the way it used to work and so now I cant use them without using a mouse.
Whos idea was it to implement this bad idea without first checking with the users?? That is bad business - come on MS - do your market research before changing things... stick to the basics.
Please at least give a button to switch back to how it used to work.
- I have staunchly stayed with Microsoft, despite the ridicule of my cyber security peers. I suppose I will start investigating creating a work build of a linux distro that provides all the functionality I need. I know my play environment (Steam) exists and probably is improved on Linux. Most things are, and the linux community is far more responsive to professional needs.
I have been on pen-abled Windows tablets since my first Acer C312x, and am just so surprised that the pen functionality I have used since Windows XP tablet would be changed so drastically without a thought of the customers that have been using pen/tablet functionality for 15 years.And I go back in time even further with the penabled Acer TravelMate C210 bought in 2007. After that revelation in user interface (pre iPhone launch) it was slate style all the way for me. 10 years later it looks like I'll now be saying bye to my final Windows slate style tablet PC.
All good things come to an end and it's been a fantastic ride up until the last month or so.
- Also, it has been publicly complained about since it's introduction in July, and no response. http://pocketnow.com/2017/07/29/windows-10-fall-creators-update
Hi I want to chime in here too. I am just a plain old user not a creator or professional. I want Microsoft to know that this change on the pen is not just an inconvenience to the pro's who use the pen for a living its effecting the consumer who were happy highlighting text in a variety of apps. You have turned a $130 pen into a mouse. If i want to click and drag I will pull my windows 95 pc out of my storage shed and click and drag with my mouse all I want but here in 2018 i would like to go back to using my surface and pen. But to do that you need to give us back what you took.
Thanks
