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Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Patrick Lawless
Occasional Contributor

Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I'd like to know how the incomprehensible change in stylus behaviour, which severely impacts those who primarily input with pen, was ever considered a positive?

 

The multiple adverse effects are cropping up via user complaints, which a quick web search will reveal. Rather than provide a summary list I can illustrate the ill-thought out nature of the change using just one example.

 

Pen flicks and navigation has been rendered completely unusable but yet is still a component part of Windows 10. Personally I've relied on pen flicks as a productivity tool for as long as I've been a pen user - which is now over ten years. At a stroke, ironically, this feature has been broken through incompetence or neglect - either fit so take your pick.

 

Please provide an answer or even better a timetable for reversing this calamity.

 

Regards

 

Patrick

 

P.S. Any typos entirely the fault of the 2nd incomprehensible decision to replace the fully featured on-screen keyboard with a finger friendly but condensed keyboard. Doesn't the Windows 10 engineering team have any pen-centric members on board?

67 Replies
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Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Hello Patrick, I'm the GPM on the Interaction Platform team, and we're the folks who care a lot about the Pen experience in Windows. I'm sorry to hear that you are having a bad experience with Pen in Windows, and would love to hear more about your experience as well as anything you have found that we should know about. Please email us at WindowsInk@Microsoft.com so that we can dig into any issues you have encountered. 

 

As for Pen flicks, that is a feature from that TabletPC edition of Windows. We did not remove it as there were still some users (like yourself who uses it), however, throughout the years we have started to retool the pen experience in Windows such that accelerators like flicks may no longer be useful/necessary. We would love to hear about the scenarios that you still continue to depend on pen flicks, perhaps there are additional things we can do in the navigation model that helps. Again, please email us at WindowsInk@microsoft.com. 

 

thanks for continuing to use the Pen in Windows and help us make it better!

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Hello Jerry,

 

Thanks for responding. I've dropped the Windows Ink team a lengthy email outlining the issues FCU has generated. I've mentioned you in despatches so hopefully I'll get a response from someone over the next few days.

 

The only point I wanted to take you up on was the behaviour of pen flicks following FCU. It is now uttrly impossible to use this feature full stop. What is so odd is to retain a feature called pen flicks which does not/cannot respond to a pen flick. It was this strange disconnect that I felt best represented the ill-thought through consequence of FCU on pen users rather than it being my only cause for concern.

 

As for using pen flicks - I use it as designed, meaning up until FCU it would be activated scores if not hundreds of times a day.

 

Regards

 

Patrick

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Hi, I have the very same issue. But for me it's much worse than just being unable to select text on a webpage.

 

After the Fall Creators update pen behaves not like it should be. Instead of the precise selection tool it became just another finger. I can't quickly select text on a webpage by just clicking and dragging. I can't select files in file explorer the same way anymore.

But all of this just fades away comparing to how pen now behaves in Adobe Illustrator. It seams that very often Illustrator register pen input like touch input making it impossible to do any kind of precise work without zooming in a lot.

 

Here is the video I've captured https://youtu.be/EC7wFT81WN4

 

As you can see, first I'm trying to select a line with the pen with no luck in 100% tries. After 0:40 I've switched to touchpad and the line is selected in 100% of tries. It's ridiculous that i have to use touchpad for drawing. And it is very crucial for me, because it's my job which I can't do anymore. I'm using pen enabled devices from the times Steve Jobs was not back at Apple yet. When I saw the first iPad presentation I laughed because of him saying that no one needs a pen and so I was using only Windows tablets. But now I see the things are going around: iPad has a pen, and my Surface Book looks like it does not. I'm not even saying about promises to bring the New Surface Pen's tilt support and Surface Dial on-screen functionality. I have no hope for it any more. But I have not expected that I will loose the basic pen functionality. Why I even bothered buying all this stuff if it does not work?

 

Pen issues are not only ones I have after updating my Surface Book but it will take to much of time and space to describe them all. I've already posted some feedback, but no luck - issues are never fixed. To resolve some issues I've done "Reset this PC" without saving any files, but instead of fixing issues I've got couple more. I've installed latest driver pack for the Surface Book, I've tried troubleshooting from Settings app. Changed batteries in the pen. Tried installing WinTab drivers, but uninstalled them, because you can already find reports of them not working correctly. I even tried to use another pen (I have every generation lying around). Nothing helped.

 

This is the question of life and death, because now I can't do my job with the Surface Book

 

Here is the link to the feedback https://aka.ms/Q7t2ad

 

before 0:40 i'm trying to use surface pen on surface book, after 0:40 i'm using touchpad. the difference is obvious

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Hi,

 

Pen flicks (Windows component) was used as an indisputable example to ensure I could avoid being fobbed off with "it's just a question of the third party software maker needing to update their drivers".

 

The negative impact this unfathomable change has caused has also stopped me using my software editing suite, which is part of my job, so you're not alone.

 

I've not yet received a reply from the Windows Ink team but I'll update here and also in the Edge forum, here;

https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/issues/14277341/

where this issue is also causing a lot of anger.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I've sent an e-mail to WindowsInk@Microsoft.com too
also i've created feedback https://aka.ms/Wpzj9h about not being able to select text on a webpage a month ago - just 11 upvotes and no reaction

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Hello Montel, and Patrick,

 

thanks for the detailed emails to WindowsInk@microsoft.com. Others have also chimed in - thank you! Keep sending us mail, the more detailed (ie. which app has issues, what specific scenario you feel is an issue) the feedback is, the more actionable it becomes for us. 

 

The team that works on Pen/Ink in Microsoft reads all emails to that alias. Please give us some time to collate the feedback and respond.

 

Note that the changes done in the Fall Creators Update, were due to feedback that we saw in the feedback hub, so your voices are being heard. 

 

Thanks.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

hi Jerry,
i can understand, that an average user doesn't use serious software like Adobe Illustrator or AutoCAD, so he wants to use the pen the same way he uses his finger. we, professionals, use this kind of software on the daily basis. but we are the minority and the feedback app, as any other democratic voting, goes by majority. you can see the results of my month old feedback - no one cares about us professionals - no one hears us.
you could at least provide a setting to turn the new behavior of such a crucial feature as the pen input on or off.
thanks for your reply, i hope this issue will be addressed as soon as possible

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Hi MonteR, 

 

I hear you, and we do care. You are right that often times, this feedback is drowned out by others. However, I will make sure that people like yourself, who use Windows and your pen for professional work are not ignored.

 

My team is digging into the specifics. In many cases, apps do have quirks that we have discovered over time, but we have a strategy for that - stay tuned.  if you can send additional details, eg. which version of illustrator you use, or other professional software you have observed issues with, to the WindowsInk@microsoft.com alias, this will help us narrow things down as well as work with the software vendors on solutions.

 

Sorry for the issues that you have encountered.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I'm also having a lot of problems with the new pen behaviour. 90% of the time i work with only pen and touch as my main and only input, and often using web apps for my work. The new behaviours I experienced in fall creators update forced me to revert to previous Windows version and block it from installing again in order to get any work done at all. 

 

I will write a more detailed e-mail about the issues but will mention some of them here. All of these issues are pen oriented and caused by the new behaviour.

 

* Text selection - feels very clunky compared to 1703. Takes a lot longer.

* Pen can no longer double/tripple tap to select word or paragraph. 

* Selecting text using barrel button but clicking it again to copy will deselect.

* Pen scrolling conflicting with drag&drop, selection rectangle, object manipulation, and drawing in some apps.

* Barrel button not always firing context menus.

* Press and hold works for right clicking but can cause problems in drawing softwares when drawing slowly.

 

I first reported some of these issues the web-app developers which said it's probably browser issues, reported bugs with edge who said it's by design, which led me here.

 

After trying fall creators update I now dread the day i will be forced to update again. I don't understand how something like this can pass QA checks and deliver to the masses without an off switch. The pen is a PRO tool. Not a $100 extra finger. I already have 10 fingers for scrolling, zooming, pinching, rotating. The pen feels like the 11th finger after the update, and not as a good X-Men mutation thing, but more like a useless birth defect that's in the way.

 

I really hope the devs come to their senses and sees the pen as a pro tool and adds off switches for badly implemented functions and hopefully some more customization options too. I don't mind the mainstream pen scrolling being there, as long as I can switch it off.

 

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I've also sent an email to WindowsInk@microsoft.com detailing some of the issues I've had with the pen.

It kind of boggles me how this was signed off without an off switch, as it can certainly break the workflow, especially for Creative Professionals.

I had to resort to reverting back to 1703, and stop the update from installing. I fear the day that I'm forced to update unless there is a fix for this. I've even explored options like using AutoHotKey to convert pen input to mouse input in some instances, and fixing barrel button not firing right click correctly.

New behaviour definitely needs an 'off-switch'. Or a an option in settings along the line of.
Pen behaviour.
Mouse-like or Touch like (including scrolling)

Thanks for looking in to this.

Solution

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Please please provide an off switch for the new pen scrolling/panning feature. It breaks SO MANY things! 

 

The work-around with having to hold the right click pen barrel button is really awful because: 1. That's supposed to open a context sensitive menu.  2. Having to hold the button means having to hold the pen differently.  3. Some Windows 10 tablet pens (such as the Samsung Galaxy Book) do not have a right-click barrel button so in those cases many functions are actually impossible.  4. It's extremely unintuitive. Previously, I could tap & drag everything with ease... move files, rearrange start menu tiles, resize calendar appointments, drag/drop whatever.  Now doing those types of things are much more difficult and much less efficient. It's a huge crutch on our workflows.

 

The new behavior also interferes heavily with the Wacom drivers used in Wacom pen displays, the Wacom MobileStudio Pro, and the new HP Zbook x2.  Thankfully, those devices have a checkbox in the driver to disable "Windows Ink", however when the Windows Ink is in use, the new pen scrolling behavior causes major problems.  For example, an easy repro scenario is to right click the address bar in Micosoft Edge using the pen's barrel button (Wacom hardware with Windows Ink on)... The whole system will become unresponsive after that right click.  I've reproduced this on 2 devices as well as a workstation with a pen display plugged in.  It affects other things too like not being able to move objects in InDesign, causing hangs in Adobe Bridge, etc.

 

I've also got a few tablets that use the Microsoft N-Trig pens and those have issues as well, but do not have the advantage of being able to switch off "Windows Ink".  It's really made the pen interface into a terrible user experience.

 

There are a bunch of videos here of how bad the UX was in back in July when this new behavior was first being introduced to Windows Insiders. Some of those were fixed somewhat, but it still shouldn't have been released without an off switch.  It should have been an Opt-In feature I think. 

 

I hope an off switch will be available before the "Current Branch for Business" gets the Fall Creators Update!

 

Here's some more feedback hub links:

https://aka.ms/Cth1bj

https://aka.ms/Nm2ba8

https://aka.ms/Senlr6

https://aka.ms/U7g3yd

https://aka.ms/Rx0k5l

https://aka.ms/L3qw8q

 

This one is very important: "Always provide off switch for terrible new features"
https://aka.ms/Fg7wme

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Another example of broken pen behavior could be seen in the prototyping web app Figma at https://www.figma.com - you can interact with anything inside drawing area only when the side button on the pen is pressed. it's not possible to work that way - your hand starts to hurt in couple of minutes. but there is also the second problem - you can't right click for the context menu because pressing the side button just allows you to interact with objects and is not interpreted like a right click. You can check it yourself, because the web app is free.
Another great example is another prototyping web app Marvel at https://marvelapp.com - this one is very popular, but now it's almost unusable for the same reasons as above - you can draw only holding the pen button pressed. If you try to create some even basic project in this way - you will understand that everything is wrong with this new pen behavior.
And these are not the only web apps that is affected.
I don't have a mouse for about 7-8 years and I don't want to buy one. I think drawing with mouse is as unnatural as scrolling with the pen. And using a touchpad (which I have to use now on my Surface Book) for drawing is even more unnatural.
I hope these issues will be fixed soon, because my work doesn't give me a feel of satisfaction of creating something new.
I think the name of this update is misleading, it should be called the Fall Not-For-Creators Update, because it's almost impossible to create anything with the pen.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Don't get me started on web apps. I could make a pretty decent list of web-apps that worked great before FCU. And using these with only pen and touch worked great. No keyboard/Mouse required.

 

http://editor.construct.net I use to make html5 games and prototyping. No fun at all after FCU

http://tinkercad.com Cute little modelling software i play with sometimes. Not with FCU though

http://onenote.com Even Microsofts own. I Preffered using the Online version becuse I could mark and select text with pen, where the UWP version would always draw when I try using my pen. I don't wanna draw in the UWP app (unless i tell it to)  and certainly don't wanna scroll with the pen in the online version. 

 

The best option in FCU for any type of text editing is good old notepad. Still selects text like usual, and doesn't scoll.

 

I don't know why it's so hard for devs to add options and setting instead of just asuming that their cool new, feature everyone would like.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

As for me I don't know why devs don't try to use their own implementation, because I don't know how someone could miss so many issues. It reminds me of working on some projects where devs were doing their job to just get a checkmark "done" on their to-do list no matter how bad it was done.
And with the OneNote app you are right - I hate that it keeps inking even after I select the "Select Objects" tool. Had to use it with touch only, because prior to buying Surface Book i had a Surface Pro 4 (and before that Surface Pro 1) with the bluetooth Microsoft Wedge Keyboard, so my only options were pen or touch.
Now I'm thinking I'd be totally screwed now if I hadn't bought Surface Book couple of months ago - it has a touchpad at least.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I would just like to add my voice that this update has completely destroyed my ability to use the CAD software my company uses. We don't use flicks but the pens dragging behaviour makes drawing almost completely impossible. At least this thread seems a bit more positive. On https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-touch/pen-scrolling-is-inconsistent-and...
we are just being told "it must be our pen" or "roll back to an older version of windows"

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I use the music notation Finale and the pen supplied an extra level of precision. Now I cannot right click because the button is for selection only. What were they thinking? Oh right, they weren't...

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I'd also like to voice my opinion about this issue as well. I wrecked my brain trying to figure out why my pen was working like the way it did. I thought it was some type of driver bug or something. I'm a fan of new and innovative experiences, but this has been the worse for me. I'm having the same exact issues as the other users are. I also honestly think it would've been genius to implement a "turn off" functionality for those who desire preference in the name of customization. Please Windows, let us have some customization where we can turn this thing off.

 

Happy Holidays

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I totally agree with the comments on this page.

Why was this released without someone catching this obvious flaw is beyond me.

Breaking programs that manipulate graphics with handles is totally unacceptable and has seriously hampered the usefulness of my Surface when drawing.  This should never have made it out the door.  

When is the fix coming for this serious bug?  

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

It's probably good to post full names/locations/videos of the applications/web-apps that the Fall Creators update has totally broken so that there's a good record of them all. I think Microsoft doesn't read the feedback hub very much, so having videos of the terrible user experience may be an easier way to see what's gone wrong.  Here's a video of how working in Dreamweaver CC 2018 looks: https://twitter.com/adamzea/status/931562896793927681

 

For people with Wacom digitizers and Wacom drivers, there's a really cool way to disable or enable the awful new Windows Ink pen behavior only in specific programs.  In the properties window, with the pen selected, you can add applications using the + button in the 3rd row, then select the application, and change the settings.  This causes the settings to automatically change when that application is active AND this includes the "Windows Ink" checkbox.  So since a right click of the pen with Windows Ink enabled in Microsoft Edge causes the whole system to crash, I can disable it when that application is in the foreground. I've also enabled Windows Ink for my Hyper-V virtual machine running the Insiders Fast build so that I can continue to test and see if they ever fix the pen behavior.

 

SourceURL:https://twitter.com/adamzea/status/940618239473745922

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I wish all tablet PC devices had an off Switch. I'm on a Surface Pro 4. Is it possible to investigate if that option alters any particular registry key? So we at least can figure out a hack to completely disable it. Otherwize I guess my next tablet PC willl be a Wacom Mobile studio pro, or something like that.

 

There must be a way to manually Switch it off.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I have searched the registry like crazy trying to find something that would turn off the new behavior on a Surface Pro.  No luck.  :(  I wish there was.  Another alternative to the Wacom MobileStudio Pro that's coming out at the end of this month is the HP ZBook X2. It's pretty pricey, but that was made in partnership with Wacom, so it has their same drivers, pen, and programmable bezel buttons. Check out those specs though. :)

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Hmmmm, You just gave me an idea!!! First thing tomorrow when I arrive at work I will connect an intuos pro to my surface, install drivers and try disable windows ink that way. Since wacom figured out how to disable this abomination, an external wacom device might do the trick as long as you can install the drivers and use the wacom settings to turn it off. It's worth buying a cheap external drawing wacom tablet just to get the off switch.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Fall update, has had a negative effect on the pen in tablet mode, previously used as a pointer, like a mouse, with click ability like a mouse, now this function is flawed not working properly can not point to a letter in a word just the front or end of the word, then use keyboard arrows, highlight text click to bring up drop down deselect...so no more cut and paste.

This is on everyday use, eg emailing, ms edge, ms store just using the pen becomes more of a hindrance, so surface pro is real a laptop now, I dropped samsung galaxy note for pathetic support and upgrading making 2-3 year old devices obsolete, dumb, please do not go the same way windows/ms. 

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I tried connecting a wacom tablet to the surface pro 4 and disable windows ink. It didn't have any effect on the Surface Pen though, only for the Wacom Pen. Figures! I was hoping it was a system wide block of windows ink in selected apps.

After a bit of investigation I found some controls for pen properties in the registry.

There's a few group policy settings in GP edit but nothing in regards to scrolling.
User Configuration/Administrative Templates/Windows Components/Tablet PC/

There are some pen settings in this key. (But pretty much the same settings you can find elsewhere)
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Wisp\Pen\SysEventParameters

Wisp.dll seems to be the related to windows ink as it stands for 'Windows Ink Service Protocol'

After a bit of googling I found an old thread that might hold some further clues, but I need to investigate further if it can help in this case.
https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1260

So far 1703 is still very usable and I don't plan to go back to 1709 (FCU) any time soon if if this isn't resolved. If I some time in the future will be forced to update, without any fix for this maybe last resort will be one of these options.

* Getting help making an AutoHotKey script that translates all pen input in certain apps to mouse input. I'm already using an AHK-script to enable hover right click for the barrel button.

* Contacting some experts at Either TabletPro or LazyNezumi to help create a 3rd party app that can catch pen input and convert it to mouse input, in certain selected apps.

TabletPro a really nice tool for Tablet users, that can do all sort of things like converting touch input to mouse, adding touch button interface etc, so I bet they could do the same for pen.

LazyNezumi captures pen input and can apply smoothing and many other effects in various drawing softwares, so they might have some expertese in how to get around the pen scrolling.

I really hope Microsoft Ink Team get their act together and fix this. I don't wanna rely on 3rd party apps and scripts and hacks to make my pen a usuable tool. If there's no other option, maybe a crowd funded project to pay some experts to create what we're after is the only option.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Hi Ricard,
You've done pretty throughout research here. I was already thinking of going through Factory reset for my Surface Book, but have to finish so much work which now takes much more time. May be on Christmas I will be doing this instead of celebrating. I regret doing Reset this PC without saving personal files, because now I can't just return to 1703. I even regret buying my Surface Book with Performance Base (i7 16GB 512GB model). Here in Europe it's 150% of the US price, so I'm not going to buy any new device soon. Now I'm really thinking Wacom Mobile Studio would be much better choice. I will think twice (no, even trice) before buying anything new from Microsoft.
Adobe already released the hotfix for their Illustrator CC 2018 regarding some performance issues. But it does not fix any pen issues, because the problem is not on the Adobe side.
The initial CC2018 release date was the same as of FCU, and they delivered the hotfix in 2 weeks.
Microsoft released another cumulative update the same time with no fixes regarding the pen. I'm not sure we will see any fixes till next big update in spring 2018. But it's more probably we will get even more issues instead of any fixes.
I've noticed I'm using my Galaxy Note 8 for marking screenshots for developers more and more. Never thought I will be doing my work on the phone. Probably because it has the S-Pen made with collaboration with Wacom.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I recently bought Note 8 and it is way more usable tool when it comes to inking.

It has better latency than my first gen Surface Book.
And it has better recognition for typing.

I was checking the new Surface Pro and the new Pen is amazing, but what kind of an idiot I would be if I bought the new generation when after so long time Ms didn't even confirmed the issue and did not tell us when it is going to be addressed!

You treat your customers with insane amount of disrespect!

you advertised surface as productive tool and you kill it by YOUR own stupidity and you behave like everything is great.

But no. Everything is wrong when I can be more productive on a phone than on my Surface which I loved working on.

Fix THE BLOODY INKING ASAP.

My patience has limits when it comes to work related tasks.

t his is PRODUCTION build so don't treat us as some open BETA testers!!!

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I agree with you.

Surface products are marketed as Pen centric Professional tools with a pretty hefty price tag, and not so much regular consumer products. With that in mind it boggles me that there's so little customization, to pen behaviour within the system or Microsoft's own apps.

Once again OneNote UWP app, as an example. Devs just assumed that people with pen want to draw when they use a pen. I don't wanna draw. I wanna select, copy, and edit text with the pen. If I wanna draw or scribble I will use that setting myself. This is a clear indication Microsoft is deciding how you should use the pen, and not giving you any options to make settings that fit your workflow.

I get that regular consumers want to use the pen for scrolling when browsing the web, or take some notes in OneNote while in class, but for Power Users like us who use pen for everything we need to have it working efficiently, and we need to have options to set up behaviours to make our workflow as comfortable as possible.

This is where Wacom products get it. They have an Off switch. Options to Turn off Windows ink for certain applications because people need to be able to work in their own way, without lousy forced functionality getting in their way.

I hope microsoft take note of that and see that the Pen is a Pro tool, and needs customization, off switches etc. 

My current settings for pen is (1703):
* Flicks turned off, because it sometimes triggers when I don't want it to.
* Pen, Tap & Hold for right clicks, turned off because it can cause input lag, and trigger right clicks when drawing slowly in certain apps.
* Use Pen button as Right click. Turned off, because I prefer to have the pen doing a right click while hovering, so I'm using an AutoHotkey script to enable that functionality.
* Text selection I want it to be mouse like. Drag to select a span of text. Double tap to select word. Tripple tap, to select paragraph.
* Windows Ink workspace, disabled as it's not useful at all to me.

Pen Options that I'm currently missing (in FCU).
* System setting for hover right click.
* System setting to disable pen scrolling.
* System setting to not Ink by default in softwares like OneNote.
* System setting to have pen behave like mouse and not as touch for text selection.

I'm not comfortable at all with the FCU pen behaviour, and there is no way to change the behaviour anywhere. I don't know who WindowsInk is targeted at, but it's certainly not perofessionals. Maybe students and middle managers who wanna scroll pages, scribble and take notes on PDF files. NOT for creative professionals who use Pen intesively for Drawing, Text editing, copy, pase, selection, object manipulation, etc etc.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Same as all that have commented, here are the features that I missed before I rolled back out of 1709.  So sad to see such a large change to pen input without any thought for how people may be working.

In browsers:
- using pen to select text without a button press on the pen (Rosa in another thread commented about the detriment to our joints this will create, and repetitive motion syndrome is one of the reasons I use my pen instead of a mouse.)

- double tap to select a word

- triple tap to select a paragraph

 

I haven't checked for a while, but if the "Pen as mouse" instead of inking option is gone from the Office Apps, I'll miss that too.

 

And I don't use the Adobe apps frequently, but I see that someone has documented the issue with Illustrator and the new pen functionality.  I'll have that issue too.

 

I was recently in the Microsoft store and remember seeing that big artist version of a surface, and I can't imagine people who would purchase that computer would be okay with the pen acting liking a finger...

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Hi Jerry-

 

I have already e-mailed the Windows Ink address, but wanted to add my voice to this conversation as well because I am so disappointed in this change.  The changes to how the scrolling/dragging behavior of the surface pen have made me hate my Surface.  I previously was very happy with it.

 

Let me be real clear, this change will prevent me from buying another Surface when it comes time to upgrade.  I also work in IT and this change will prevent me from recommending the product for purchase in my organization.  It ruins the experience of using the pen to interact with non-ink applications.

 

As another user said, I already have 10 fingers. I don't need an eleventh finger for scrolling, I am content to use any of the 10 that are already on my hands. Please, please, please roll back this behavior or make the option configurable.

 

Thanks,
Derrick

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Monte, note that when I log in to the feedback hub, I can't see your feedback to upvote it.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Jerry,

2 weeks ago you mentioned "quirks in apps", and I want to ensure you understand that this is not quirky apps, this is the way the pen functions in the latest version of Microsoft.

 

Not just certain apps, not just Surface computers and their pens. 

 

I'm on a Lenovo X1 Yoga 2nd Gen, with a Lenovo ThinkPad pen, and have the same issues.  Everything fails, not just certain apps.

 

I want to add that as soon as I realized my processing of 180+ web pages was going to be hindered by the update I installed this weekend, I rolled back to 1703. While doing my work process, I realized that I probably would have encountered pen issues in Adobe DreamWeaver as well, but since that is near the end of the process, I hadn't discovered it yet.


Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Saw that 17063 dropped in the insider preview build fast ring. Did anyone have time to check if they fixed pen behaviour yet? 

I couldn't find anything about it in the release notes. 

 

 

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

can report no changes yet

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Hey Microsoft. I got the perfect solution:

Revert back to old pen behaviour so professionals can get some actual work done with their styluses. And then start selling a capacitive Surface Crayon for people who want to use pen for scrolling.

This change is idiotic and needs to be fixed ASAP.

I already have a design proposal for the new surface crayon here.

surface_crayon.jpg

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I'm reluctantly reaching the conclusion this disastrous change will not be reversed. Unfortunately, complainants appear astonishingly few and far between. Despite 1,200 views there are only 12 contributors and I'm unable to find any other blogs etc. which have this issue cooking up a storm.

 

It appears the severe damage this change has visited upon professional pen centric users is just too small a sector to have MS spending resources/time either investigating or reversing. I have also tried reaching back out to Jerry Koh, having received no acknowledgment from the WindowsInk team, but his trail has now gone cold. I also messaged Rick Rodriguez of Surface Pro Artist thinking this change might have adversely impacted his work flow and a well-placed blog post would garner more attention than it seems this forum is able to. Again, no response leading to my reluctant conclusion.

 

As I'm unable to revert to Creators Update I am now forced to radically reassess my options as the pen interface is now simply unbearable on a daily basis As MS's unique pen functionality has now been degraded to such a degree it is no better than Apple's iPad pencil or Samsung's Galaxy Android Wacom stylus I can at least compare and contrast on an, albeit crippled, level playing field. No doubt a Wacom device will be required for my photoediting work but my mainstay tablet/mobility solutions no longer need be confined to the penabled Windos tablet of yesteryear or MS's next great hope, the Surface family.

 

The long and the short for me is a likely move away from Windows OS but alas not replicated in sufficient numbers for MS to notice or care.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I have staunchly stayed with Microsoft, despite the ridicule of my cyber security peers. I suppose I will start investigating creating a work build of a linux distro that provides all the functionality I need. I know my play environment (Steam) exists and probably is improved on Linux. Most things are, and the linux community is far more responsive to professional needs.

I have been on pen-abled Windows tablets since my first Acer C312x, and am just so surprised that the pen functionality I have used since Windows XP tablet would be changed so drastically without a thought of the customers that have been using pen/tablet functionality for 15 years.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Also, it has been publicly complained about since it's introduction in July, and no response. http://pocketnow.com/2017/07/29/windows-10-fall-creators-update

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I've kept some of my pro tablets on the "Business" release ring for Windows Updates, and those thankfully haven't gotten the broken "Fall Creators Update" yet. Maybe other professional creators have deferred the update as well.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

And I go back in time even further with the penabled Acer TravelMate C210 bought in 2007. After that revelation in user interface (pre iPhone launch) it was slate style all the way for me. 10 years later it looks like I'll now be saying bye to my final Windows slate style tablet PC.

 

All good things come to an end and it's been a fantastic ride up until the last month or so.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

If it is any comfort they did seem sincere in their earlier posts. I got a reply from WindowsInk on twitter earlier and hopefully they are looking in to it. I'm not giving up yet, but sticking with 1703 for now. (Which works as expected thankfully) 

Only my old Surface has Fall Creators update on it so I can see if anything happens, regarding pen.

Even if we are a minority. I don't see any harm in adding options. I don't mind new features as long as they come with an off switch.


Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

"After that revelation in user interface (pre iPhone launch) it was slate style all the way for me."

Ditto. Acer C312x, Dell something that was a tablet convertible, 2 Thinkpad X200Ts, Lenovo X1 Yoga 1st gen, and now X1 Yoga 2nd gen. Can't imagine going back, which is why I'm going to see what a Linux build can give me, with my Yoga 1st gen.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

lam going to install Ubuntu on the weekend and will be switching to google.

I was on board with MS for over 15 years and l was ok with minor bugs or occasional DSOD...

But when CE0 send a message that MS no longer care about consumer market (which is sad, but still understandable) and focus on Enterprise instead.

But the end result is Pushing untested updates and zero interest in fixing what they broke clearly sends the message that Mr. Nadella is living in some stupid dream that MS is still in monopol position. I give you 10-15 years and MS will end up as Nokia.

Two years ago it seemed that they knew what needs to be done and they had a vision.

this year they keep cancelling products and ignore issues that their customers have.

This will back fire pretty hard and soon.

What lam 100% sure that I will never buy Surface product again. I love them, but testing is my profession and I get paid for that.

Getting surface is paying MS to test for them LOL

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Lots of websites AND APPS still don't have controls optimized for touch input. Especially interactive elements.  For example the option to cut uploaded picture. Before Fall Creators update I would use pen for such controls. Now the pen starts scrolling instead of selecting. 

Apps are now a nightmare. I use several that require specific use of the pen in the way it used to work and so now I cant use them without using a mouse.

 

Whos idea was it to implement this bad idea without first checking with the users?? That is bad business - come on MS - do your market research before changing things... stick to the basics.

 

Please at least give a button to switch back to how it used to work.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I have a Surface 3 and a Surface pen. I used to be able to press on the screen, drag and highlight text or a website link. On a panoramic photo I used to be able to drag it across the screen by just pressing on the screen and moving across. Simple things compared to the items mentioned above, but can't do it any longer since the Fall update. Very annoying, clicking the barrel button only opens Note, no options in Settings to change it 'highlight' as suggested. 

Any sign of  a fix yet?

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

In case this recent development has been missed by contributers to this thread there seems to be light on the horizon.

 

A developer from the Edge team has taken on board the severe discontent this has generated among pen centric users on a cross-referenced forum and promised to get our grievances looked into.

 

Hope springs eternal.

 

See here: https://developer.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/platform/issues/14277341/#comment-50

 

 

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

Hi I want to chime in here too. I am just a plain old user not a creator or professional. I want Microsoft to know that this change on the pen is not just an inconvenience to the pro's who use the pen for a living its effecting the consumer who were happy highlighting text in a variety of apps. You have turned a $130 pen into a mouse. If i want to click and drag I will pull my windows 95 pc out of my storage shed and click and drag with my mouse all I want but here in 2018 i would like to go back to using my surface and pen. But to do that you need to give us back what you took.
Thanks

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?


@Patrick Lawless wrote:

I'd like to know how the incomprehensible change in stylus behaviour, which severely impacts those who primarily input with pen, was ever considered a positive?

 

The multiple adverse effects are cropping up via user complaints, which a quick web search will reveal. Rather than provide a summary list I can illustrate the ill-thought out nature of the change using just one example.

 

Pen flicks and navigation has been rendered completely unusable but yet is still a component part of Windows 10. Personally I've relied on pen flicks as a productivity tool for as long as I've been a pen user - which is now over ten years. At a stroke, ironically, this feature has been broken through incompetence or neglect - either fit so take your pick.

 

Please provide an answer or even better a timetable for reversing this calamity.

 

Regards

 

Patrick

 

P.S. Any typos entirely the fault of the 2nd incomprehensible decision to replace the fully featured on-screen keyboard with a finger friendly but condensed keyboard. Doesn't the Windows 10 engineering team have any pen-centric members on board?



Hi I want to chime in here too. I am just a plain old user not a creator or professional. I want Microsoft to know that this change on the pen is not just an inconvenience to the pro's who use the pen for a living its effecting the consumer who were happy highlighting text in a variety of apps. You have turned a $130 pen into a mouse. If i want to click and drag I will pull my windows 95 pc out of my storage shed and click and drag with my mouse all I want but here in 2018 i would like to go back to using my surface and pen. But to do that you need to give us back what you took.
Thanks

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I created a damned profile just for this. I'm sorry but this won't be civil. 

 

-begin rant

WHO THE HELL THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO TAKE THE DAMNED PEN TIP AND CHANGE IT TO LEFT BUTTON INPUT!!!! 

 

Why would you take the life blood OUT of what creators actually do!? Jeez, I'm sorry but it's a bone-headed idea. I'm a professional and depend on my various art software to get work done. I'm also a dev, so I know a thing or two about programming. Why wouldn't there have been a config setting for everyday people and one for ACTUAL creators!? I mean c'mon, man, what the hell? 

 

Now, I have to revert or wait for another update with a config setting OR (much worse) wait for individual software developers to update their drivers. (remember how long it took for wintab situation to worked out for art, anyone?).

 

Sorry, I just don't have time for this type of stuff working in a profession. So, you're going to hear when I'm upset this time. God, fix it. I'm gonna have to revert for now though, because apparently, a slew of people have been sending feedback emails and still no answer after a couple months. Wonderful.

 

-rant over.

Re: Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?

I created a profile just for this. I'm sorry but this won't be civil. 

 

-begin rant

WHO THE HELL THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA TO TAKE THE DAMNED PEN TIP AND CHANGE IT TO LEFT BUTTON INPUT!!!! 

 

Why would you take the life blood OUT of what creators actually do!? Jeez, I'm sorry but it's a bone-headed idea. I'm a professional and depend on my various art software to get work done. I'm also a dev, so I know a thing or two about programming. Why wouldn't there have been a config setting for everyday people and one for ACTUAL creators!? I mean c'mon, man, what the hell? 

 

Now, I have to revert or wait for another update with a config setting OR (much worse) wait for individual software developers to update their drivers. (remember how long it took for wintab situation to worked out for art, anyone?).

 

Sorry, I just don't have time for this type of stuff working in a profession. So, you're going to hear when I'm upset this time. God, fix it. I'm gonna have to revert for now though, because apparently, a slew of people have been sending feedback emails and still no answer after a couple months. Wonderful.

 

-rant over.

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