Forum Discussion
Windows 10 v1709 AMA - Why has Creators Update Fall treated creators so badly?
Please please provide an off switch for the new pen scrolling/panning feature. It breaks SO MANY things!
The work-around with having to hold the right click pen barrel button is really awful because: 1. That's supposed to open a context sensitive menu. 2. Having to hold the button means having to hold the pen differently. 3. Some Windows 10 tablet pens (such as the Samsung Galaxy Book) do not have a right-click barrel button so in those cases many functions are actually impossible. 4. It's extremely unintuitive. Previously, I could tap & drag everything with ease... move files, rearrange start menu tiles, resize calendar appointments, drag/drop whatever. Now doing those types of things are much more difficult and much less efficient. It's a huge crutch on our workflows.
The new behavior also interferes heavily with the Wacom drivers used in Wacom pen displays, the Wacom MobileStudio Pro, and the new HP Zbook x2. Thankfully, those devices have a checkbox in the driver to disable "Windows Ink", however when the Windows Ink is in use, the new pen scrolling behavior causes major problems. For example, an easy repro scenario is to right click the address bar in Micosoft Edge using the pen's barrel button (Wacom hardware with Windows Ink on)... The whole system will become unresponsive after that right click. I've reproduced this on 2 devices as well as a workstation with a pen display plugged in. It affects other things too like not being able to move objects in InDesign, causing hangs in Adobe Bridge, etc.
I've also got a few tablets that use the Microsoft N-Trig pens and those have issues as well, but do not have the advantage of being able to switch off "Windows Ink". It's really made the pen interface into a terrible user experience.
There are a http://pocketnow.com/2017/07/29/windows-10-fall-creators-update in back in July when this new behavior was first being introduced to Windows Insiders. Some of those were fixed somewhat, but it still shouldn't have been released without an off switch. It should have been an Opt-In feature I think.
I hope an off switch will be available before the "Current Branch for Business" gets the Fall Creators Update!
Here's some more feedback hub links:
https://aka.ms/Cth1bj
https://aka.ms/Nm2ba8
https://aka.ms/Senlr6
https://aka.ms/U7g3yd
https://aka.ms/Rx0k5l
https://aka.ms/L3qw8q
This one is very important: "Always provide off switch for terrible new features"
https://aka.ms/Fg7wme
i can understand, that an average user doesn't use serious software like Adobe Illustrator or AutoCAD, so he wants to use the pen the same way he uses his finger. we, professionals, use this kind of software on the daily basis. but we are the minority and the feedback app, as any other democratic voting, goes by majority. you can see the results of my month old feedback - no one cares about us professionals - no one hears us.
you could at least provide a setting to turn the new behavior of such a crucial feature as the pen input on or off.
thanks for your reply, i hope this issue will be addressed as soon as possible
Hi MonteR,
I hear you, and we do care. You are right that often times, this feedback is drowned out by others. However, I will make sure that people like yourself, who use Windows and your pen for professional work are not ignored.
My team is digging into the specifics. In many cases, apps do have quirks that we have discovered over time, but we have a strategy for that - stay tuned. if you can send additional details, eg. which version of illustrator you use, or other professional software you have observed issues with, to the WindowsInk@microsoft.com alias, this will help us narrow things down as well as work with the software vendors on solutions.
Sorry for the issues that you have encountered.
Jerry,
2 weeks ago you mentioned "quirks in apps", and I want to ensure you understand that this is not quirky apps, this is the way the pen functions in the latest version of Microsoft.
Not just certain apps, not just Surface computers and their pens.
I'm on a Lenovo X1 Yoga 2nd Gen, with a Lenovo ThinkPad pen, and have the same issues. Everything fails, not just certain apps.
I want to add that as soon as I realized my processing of 180+ web pages was going to be hindered by the update I installed this weekend, I rolled back to 1703. While doing my work process, I realized that I probably would have encountered pen issues in Adobe DreamWeaver as well, but since that is near the end of the process, I hadn't discovered it yet.
Hi Jerry-
I have already e-mailed the Windows Ink address, but wanted to add my voice to this conversation as well because I am so disappointed in this change. The changes to how the scrolling/dragging behavior of the surface pen have made me hate my Surface. I previously was very happy with it.
Let me be real clear, this change will prevent me from buying another Surface when it comes time to upgrade. I also work in IT and this change will prevent me from recommending the product for purchase in my organization. It ruins the experience of using the pen to interact with non-ink applications.
As another user said, I already have 10 fingers. I don't need an eleventh finger for scrolling, I am content to use any of the 10 that are already on my hands. Please, please, please roll back this behavior or make the option configurable.
Thanks,
DerrickAnother example of broken pen behavior could be seen in the prototyping web app Figma at https://www.figma.com - you can interact with anything inside drawing area only when the side button on the pen is pressed. it's not possible to work that way - your hand starts to hurt in couple of minutes. but there is also the second problem - you can't right click for the context menu because pressing the side button just allows you to interact with objects and is not interpreted like a right click. You can check it yourself, because the web app is free.
Another great example is another prototyping web app Marvel at https://marvelapp.com - this one is very popular, but now it's almost unusable for the same reasons as above - you can draw only holding the pen button pressed. If you try to create some even basic project in this way - you will understand that everything is wrong with this new pen behavior.
And these are not the only web apps that is affected.
I don't have a mouse for about 7-8 years and I don't want to buy one. I think drawing with mouse is as unnatural as scrolling with the pen. And using a touchpad (which I have to use now on my Surface Book) for drawing is even more unnatural.
I hope these issues will be fixed soon, because my work doesn't give me a feel of satisfaction of creating something new.
I think the name of this update is misleading, it should be called the Fall Not-For-Creators Update, because it's almost impossible to create anything with the pen.Don't get me started on web apps. I could make a pretty decent list of web-apps that worked great before FCU. And using these with only pen and touch worked great. No keyboard/Mouse required.
http://editor.construct.net I use to make html5 games and prototyping. No fun at all after FCU
http://tinkercad.com Cute little modelling software i play with sometimes. Not with FCU though
http://onenote.com Even Microsofts own. I Preffered using the Online version becuse I could mark and select text with pen, where the UWP version would always draw when I try using my pen. I don't wanna draw in the UWP app (unless i tell it to) and certainly don't wanna scroll with the pen in the online version.
The best option in FCU for any type of text editing is good old notepad. Still selects text like usual, and doesn't scoll.
I don't know why it's so hard for devs to add options and setting instead of just asuming that their cool new, feature everyone would like.
- As for me I don't know why devs don't try to use their own implementation, because I don't know how someone could miss so many issues. It reminds me of working on some projects where devs were doing their job to just get a checkmark "done" on their to-do list no matter how bad it was done.
And with the OneNote app you are right - I hate that it keeps inking even after I select the "Select Objects" tool. Had to use it with touch only, because prior to buying Surface Book i had a Surface Pro 4 (and before that Surface Pro 1) with the bluetooth Microsoft Wedge Keyboard, so my only options were pen or touch.
Now I'm thinking I'd be totally screwed now if I hadn't bought Surface Book couple of months ago - it has a touchpad at least.
Please please provide an off switch for the new pen scrolling/panning feature. It breaks SO MANY things!
The work-around with having to hold the right click pen barrel button is really awful because: 1. That's supposed to open a context sensitive menu. 2. Having to hold the button means having to hold the pen differently. 3. Some Windows 10 tablet pens (such as the Samsung Galaxy Book) do not have a right-click barrel button so in those cases many functions are actually impossible. 4. It's extremely unintuitive. Previously, I could tap & drag everything with ease... move files, rearrange start menu tiles, resize calendar appointments, drag/drop whatever. Now doing those types of things are much more difficult and much less efficient. It's a huge crutch on our workflows.
The new behavior also interferes heavily with the Wacom drivers used in Wacom pen displays, the Wacom MobileStudio Pro, and the new HP Zbook x2. Thankfully, those devices have a checkbox in the driver to disable "Windows Ink", however when the Windows Ink is in use, the new pen scrolling behavior causes major problems. For example, an easy repro scenario is to right click the address bar in Micosoft Edge using the pen's barrel button (Wacom hardware with Windows Ink on)... The whole system will become unresponsive after that right click. I've reproduced this on 2 devices as well as a workstation with a pen display plugged in. It affects other things too like not being able to move objects in InDesign, causing hangs in Adobe Bridge, etc.
I've also got a few tablets that use the Microsoft N-Trig pens and those have issues as well, but do not have the advantage of being able to switch off "Windows Ink". It's really made the pen interface into a terrible user experience.
There are a http://pocketnow.com/2017/07/29/windows-10-fall-creators-update in back in July when this new behavior was first being introduced to Windows Insiders. Some of those were fixed somewhat, but it still shouldn't have been released without an off switch. It should have been an Opt-In feature I think.
I hope an off switch will be available before the "Current Branch for Business" gets the Fall Creators Update!
Here's some more feedback hub links:
https://aka.ms/Cth1bj
https://aka.ms/Nm2ba8
https://aka.ms/Senlr6
https://aka.ms/U7g3yd
https://aka.ms/Rx0k5l
https://aka.ms/L3qw8q
This one is very important: "Always provide off switch for terrible new features"
https://aka.ms/Fg7wmeAs I mentioned earlier, the work-around of holding the right click button to select stuff doesn't work with pens that don't have a right click button. Here's a video showing that:
Here's another video about how terribly unusable the https://twitter.com/hashtag/FCU?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw is for https://twitter.com/hashtag/Windows10?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw tablets. https://twitter.com/WindowsInk?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/donasarkar?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/JenMsft?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://twitter.com/hashtag/UXFail?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw https://t.co/fnj8oDAVfX
— Adam Z Lein (@adamzea) https://twitter.com/adamzea/status/952934642176462849?ref_src=twsrc%5EtfwEven on those tablets/pens that do have a right click button, the new interface is still awful to use. You have to change the way you hold the pen, hold down a button, press the pen to the screen, AND move the pen across the screen. That's a huge amount of work to do something that had been much easier before July when this change was made in the Windows Insider builds.
- any workaround? some registry on/off tips? :P
I've also sent an email to WindowsInk@microsoft.com detailing some of the issues I've had with the pen.
It kind of boggles me how this was signed off without an off switch, as it can certainly break the workflow, especially for Creative Professionals.
I had to resort to reverting back to 1703, and stop the update from installing. I fear the day that I'm forced to update unless there is a fix for this. I've even explored options like using AutoHotKey to convert pen input to mouse input in some instances, and fixing barrel button not firing right click correctly.
New behaviour definitely needs an 'off-switch'. Or a an option in settings along the line of.
Pen behaviour.
Mouse-like or Touch like (including scrolling)
Thanks for looking in to this.I'm also having a lot of problems with the new pen behaviour. 90% of the time i work with only pen and touch as my main and only input, and often using web apps for my work. The new behaviours I experienced in fall creators update forced me to revert to previous Windows version and block it from installing again in order to get any work done at all.
I will write a more detailed e-mail about the issues but will mention some of them here. All of these issues are pen oriented and caused by the new behaviour.
* Text selection - feels very clunky compared to 1703. Takes a lot longer.
* Pen can no longer double/tripple tap to select word or paragraph.
* Selecting text using barrel button but clicking it again to copy will deselect.
* Pen scrolling conflicting with drag&drop, selection rectangle, object manipulation, and drawing in some apps.
* Barrel button not always firing context menus.
* Press and hold works for right clicking but can cause problems in drawing softwares when drawing slowly.
I first reported some of these issues the web-app developers which said it's probably browser issues, reported bugs with edge who said it's by design, which led me here.
After trying fall creators update I now dread the day i will be forced to update again. I don't understand how something like this can pass QA checks and deliver to the masses without an off switch. The pen is a PRO tool. Not a $100 extra finger. I already have 10 fingers for scrolling, zooming, pinching, rotating. The pen feels like the 11th finger after the update, and not as a good X-Men mutation thing, but more like a useless birth defect that's in the way.
I really hope the devs come to their senses and sees the pen as a pro tool and adds off switches for badly implemented functions and hopefully some more customization options too. I don't mind the mainstream pen scrolling being there, as long as I can switch it off.
