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NTLM Blocking on Windows 10 21H1 breaks some group policies, specifically allow/deny log on locally
I'm struggling with blocking NTLM outbound from workstations, as it appears that some group policy processing, specifically the user rights assignments, requires it. I've been able to replicate this so far.
Steps to reproduce on Windows 10 21H1 Pro:
Block NTLM outgoing on a workstation
Set "allow log on locally" or "deny log on locally" to include any domain group in the user rights assignments security settings/local policy.
Enable Group policy debugging with registry entry: SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows NT\CurrentVersion\Diagnostics: GPSvcDebugLevel DWORD 0x30002
Reboot
Look in c:\windows\security\logs\winlogon.log and find entries stating that it could not enumerate the groups you added. You will also find that they are not enforced.
So. how to get the winlogon process to use Kerberos and not NTLM? Can anyone else confirm this?
7 Replies
- thesquirrel1130Copper Contributor
I'm using my work profile to answer my own question here.
If you enable rpc authentication it will fall back to NTLM and if you have outbound NTLM denied you will have problems. Ex: guid mapping to groups fail; some GPO processing fails. Usernames show up as guids when viewing group memberships on workstations.
This took forever to track down when we removed ntlm from our network
Read the text in the blue box on Microsofts explanation:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/security/rpc-interface-restrict
THIS IS A KNOWN ISSUE! - JerichooBrass Contributor
You've identified a very specific and challenging issue. Based on your detailed testing, you are correct: the Windows Local Security Authority (LSA) process, which handles user logons and enforces Group Policy's user rights assignments, falls back to NTLM when it cannot use Kerberos. This is a core behavior of the Windows security architecture, not a bug.
- thesquirrel1130Copper Contributor
See my own reply as to the fix for this
- CalumboIron Contributor
Windows security policies and user rights assignments often require some form of authentication, and NTLM is commonly used for local and network authentication in various scenarios. When you block NTLM outbound, certain operations, including group enumeration during policy processing, may fail because the system can't authenticate or retrieve group membership information.
- thesquirrel1130Copper Contributor
See my own reply as to the fix for this
- FinneasHayesIron Contributor
Restrict outgoing NTLM traffic to remote servers; use the addresses of domain controllers that support Kerberos authentication instead.
- CruiseAtlasCopper Contributor
In Group Policy, configure the network security restriction for outbound NTLM traffic to remote servers to “Allow all,” and specify the domain controller address to use Kerberos authentication instead.