Blog Post

Storage at Microsoft
4 MIN READ

The mystery of the slow file copy from the fast computer

NedPyle's avatar
NedPyle
Icon for Microsoft rankMicrosoft
Nov 05, 2021

Heya folks, Ned here again. A customer contacted us about a strange behavior they were seeing when copying large files to a Windows Server 2019 cluster using SMB 3.1.1. Around every 5GB transferred, the copy would temporarily pause for a few seconds, then start sending again until the next 5GB, and then pause again, and so on until it was done. There was no error, it was just mysteriously pausing and resuming, again and again. As usual, there were lots of suspects in a complex system - the network, the drives, third party drivers, Storage Spaces Direct, clustering, SMB, the file system, antivirus, filter drivers, etc. There was no improvement using robocopy versus File Explorer and the disks weren't showing any errors. Extra weirdly, if they copied to a similarly configured Windows Server 2012 R2 destination, they didn't see the behavior! And if it was a bug, why weren't lots of customers reporting this issue? This large file copy scenario probably happens countless millions of times a day!

 

 

Well, the kernel team explained it and I'm here to share what I learned. 

 

Years ago they had a case where a customer saw timeouts when copying large files from a fast IO source to slow IO destination on Windows Server 2012 R2 (hmmmmm) over SMB. Back then, if the dirty page threshold in the cache was reached, the subsequent writes used write-through behavior (i.e. where the disk is told it can't cache data, it must commit it). This would cause a very large flush of data to drives, and if the storage was slow, it could lead to long delays and even a timeout for the client. Which the customer was seeing with their particular hardware configuration.

 

So in Window Server 2016, the kernel team added a new mitigation: a separate dirty page threshold for remote writes and a new inline flush forced when the threshold was crossed. If there was heavy write IO activity this had a new effect of occasional short slowdowns but meant that actual timeouts - and therefore total copy failure - were now extremely unlikely. This remote dirty page threshold was 5 GB per file by default (oho, sound familiar?).

 

They added a registry setting and DWORD value to control all this on the destination server, so I'll quote from their content as it's math and details time:

 

This threshold can be controlled with the following DWORD registry value name:

 

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Control\Session Manager\Memory Management\
RemoteFileDirtyPageThreshold

 

If the default size of 5 GB does not work well for your configuration, it is recommended to try increasing the limit in 256-MB increments until performance is satisfactory. Please note the following:

 

  • A reboot is required for changes to this registry value to take effect.
  • The units of RemoteFileDirtyPageThreshold are number of pages (with page size as managed by Cache Manager). This means it should be set to the desired size in bytes, divided by 4096.
  • Recommended values are 128MB <= N <= 50% of available memory.
  • This threshold can be disabled completely by setting it to -1. This is not recommended as it can result in timeouts for remote connections.

For example, if you want to set the limit to 10GiB that's 10,737,418,240 bytes / 4096 = 2,621,440 which is decimal DWORD: 2621440

 

None of this has anything specifically to do with SMB, it's just the most likely thing to be (1) remote copying and (2) fast enough to keep up with the client machine's high speed drives' throughput to server, getting into this situation of being "too good" at copying for the destination's taste. When I say "client" and "server" here I mean architecture, not operating systems; for instance, a Windows Server 2022 copying data to another Windows Server 2022 is still an SMB client and SMB server.

 

As you'd guess, when they looked at the customer machines, the client copying the data had extremely fast drives with excellent READ throughout and low latency, but the destination server had slower drives and WRITE performance. As soon as they changed the default value their pauses went away and they saved... well, just a few extra seconds, naturally :D. Unless your files are truly massive and your pauses are excruciating, it's probably not worth changing the setting to gain a few seconds and risk returning to the original timeout behavior. Most customers aren't reporting this because SMB client machine IO isn't faster than their SMB server machine, especially when their congested Wi-Fi, 1Gbs, or 10Gbs networks get figured in. So don't feel like you need to run out there and touch every server you own, ya wackadoos.

 

I didn't want people trying to troubleshoot a working SMB, so we decided to update the Performance Tuning Guidelines for Windows Server 2022 so that the Troubleshoot Cache and Memory Manager Performance Issues section explained the issue and the Performance tuning for SMB file servers section gave good tuning advice for IT pros. And now they do. 

 

Oh, and let me take the opportunity here to remind you that if you're into copying very large files, you should try SMB compression. We added that in Windows Server 2022 and Windows 11 and it is extremely dope. I have another blog post coming soon with more examples of said dope'itude, but you can get a feel for it with this demo:

 

 

Until next time,

 

Ned "dirty cash" Pyle

 

Updated Nov 07, 2022
Version 3.0

24 Comments

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A lesson in kernel memory manager behaviors 

","body":"

Heya folks, Ned here again. A customer contacted us about a strange behavior they were seeing when copying large files to a Windows Server 2019 cluster using SMB 3.1.1. Around every 5GB transferred, the copy would temporarily pause for a few seconds, then start sending again until the next 5GB, and then pause again, and so on until it was done. There was no error, it was just mysteriously pausing and resuming, again and again. As usual, there were lots of suspects in a complex system - the network, the drives, third party drivers, Storage Spaces Direct, clustering, SMB, the file system, antivirus, filter drivers, etc. There was no improvement using robocopy versus File Explorer and the disks weren't showing any errors. Extra weirdly, if they copied to a similarly configured Windows Server 2012 R2 destination, they didn't see the behavior! And if it was a bug, why weren't lots of customers reporting this issue? This large file copy scenario probably happens countless millions of times a day!

\n

 

\n

\n

 

\n

Well, the kernel team explained it and I'm here to share what I learned. 

\n

 

\n

Years ago they had a case where a customer saw timeouts when copying large files from a fast IO source to slow IO destination on Windows Server 2012 R2 (hmmmmm) over SMB. Back then, if the dirty page threshold in the cache was reached, the subsequent writes used write-through behavior (i.e. where the disk is told it can't cache data, it must commit it). This would cause a very large flush of data to drives, and if the storage was slow, it could lead to long delays and even a timeout for the client. Which the customer was seeing with their particular hardware configuration.

\n

 

\n

So in Window Server 2016, the kernel team added a new mitigation: a separate dirty page threshold for remote writes and a new inline flush forced when the threshold was crossed. If there was heavy write IO activity this had a new effect of occasional short slowdowns but meant that actual timeouts - and therefore total copy failure - were now extremely unlikely. This remote dirty page threshold was 5 GB per file by default (oho, sound familiar?).

\n

 

\n

They added a registry setting and DWORD value to control all this on the destination server, so I'll quote from their content as it's math and details time:

\n

 

\n

This threshold can be controlled with the following DWORD registry value name:

\n

 

\n

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\\SYSTEM\\CurrentControlSet\\Control\\Session Manager\\Memory Management\\
RemoteFileDirtyPageThreshold

\n

 

\n

If the default size of 5 GB does not work well for your configuration, it is recommended to try increasing the limit in 256-MB increments until performance is satisfactory. Please note the following:

\n

 

\n\n

For example, if you want to set the limit to 10GiB that's 10,737,418,240 bytes / 4096 = 2,621,440 which is decimal DWORD: 2621440

\n

 

\n

None of this has anything specifically to do with SMB, it's just the most likely thing to be (1) remote copying and (2) fast enough to keep up with the client machine's high speed drives' throughput to server, getting into this situation of being \"too good\" at copying for the destination's taste. When I say \"client\" and \"server\" here I mean architecture, not operating systems; for instance, a Windows Server 2022 copying data to another Windows Server 2022 is still an SMB client and SMB server.

\n

 

\n

As you'd guess, when they looked at the customer machines, the client copying the data had extremely fast drives with excellent READ throughout and low latency, but the destination server had slower drives and WRITE performance. As soon as they changed the default value their pauses went away and they saved... well, just a few extra seconds, naturally :D. Unless your files are truly massive and your pauses are excruciating, it's probably not worth changing the setting to gain a few seconds and risk returning to the original timeout behavior. Most customers aren't reporting this because SMB client machine IO isn't faster than their SMB server machine, especially when their congested Wi-Fi, 1Gbs, or 10Gbs networks get figured in. So don't feel like you need to run out there and touch every server you own, ya wackadoos.

\n

 

\n

I didn't want people trying to troubleshoot a working SMB, so we decided to update the Performance Tuning Guidelines for Windows Server 2022 so that the Troubleshoot Cache and Memory Manager Performance Issues section explained the issue and the Performance tuning for SMB file servers section gave good tuning advice for IT pros. And now they do. 

\n

 

\n

Oh, and let me take the opportunity here to remind you that if you're into copying very large files, you should try SMB compression. We added that in Windows Server 2022 and Windows 11 and it is extremely dope. I have another blog post coming soon with more examples of said dope'itude, but you can get a feel for it with this demo:

\n

 

\n

\n

 

\n

Until next time,

\n

 

\n

Ned \"dirty cash\" Pyle

\n

 

","body@stringLength":"8912","rawBody":"

Heya folks, Ned here again. A customer contacted us about a strange behavior they were seeing when copying large files to a Windows Server 2019 cluster using SMB 3.1.1. Around every 5GB transferred, the copy would temporarily pause for a few seconds, then start sending again until the next 5GB, and then pause again, and so on until it was done. There was no error, it was just mysteriously pausing and resuming, again and again. As usual, there were lots of suspects in a complex system - the network, the drives, third party drivers, Storage Spaces Direct, clustering, SMB, the file system, antivirus, filter drivers, etc. There was no improvement using robocopy versus File Explorer and the disks weren't showing any errors. Extra weirdly, if they copied to a similarly configured Windows Server 2012 R2 destination, they didn't see the behavior! And if it was a bug, why weren't lots of customers reporting this issue? This large file copy scenario probably happens countless millions of times a day!

\n

 

\n

\n

 

\n

Well, the kernel team explained it and I'm here to share what I learned. 

\n

 

\n

Years ago they had a case where a customer saw timeouts when copying large files from a fast IO source to slow IO destination on Windows Server 2012 R2 (hmmmmm) over SMB. Back then, if the dirty page threshold in the cache was reached, the subsequent writes used write-through behavior (i.e. where the disk is told it can't cache data, it must commit it). This would cause a very large flush of data to drives, and if the storage was slow, it could lead to long delays and even a timeout for the client. Which the customer was seeing with their particular hardware configuration.

\n

 

\n

So in Window Server 2016, the kernel team added a new mitigation: a separate dirty page threshold for remote writes and a new inline flush forced when the threshold was crossed. If there was heavy write IO activity this had a new effect of occasional short slowdowns but meant that actual timeouts - and therefore total copy failure - were now extremely unlikely. This remote dirty page threshold was 5 GB per file by default (oho, sound familiar?).

\n

 

\n

They added a registry setting and DWORD value to control all this on the destination server, so I'll quote from their content as it's math and details time:

\n

 

\n

This threshold can be controlled with the following DWORD registry value name:

\n

 

\n

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\\SYSTEM\\CurrentControlSet\\Control\\Session Manager\\Memory Management\\
RemoteFileDirtyPageThreshold

\n

 

\n

If the default size of 5 GB does not work well for your configuration, it is recommended to try increasing the limit in 256-MB increments until performance is satisfactory. Please note the following:

\n

 

\n\n

For example, if you want to set the limit to 10GiB that's 10,737,418,240 bytes / 4096 = 2,621,440 which is decimal DWORD: 2621440

\n

 

\n

None of this has anything specifically to do with SMB, it's just the most likely thing to be (1) remote copying and (2) fast enough to keep up with the client machine's high speed drives' throughput to server, getting into this situation of being \"too good\" at copying for the destination's taste. When I say \"client\" and \"server\" here I mean architecture, not operating systems; for instance, a Windows Server 2022 copying data to another Windows Server 2022 is still an SMB client and SMB server.

\n

 

\n

As you'd guess, when they looked at the customer machines, the client copying the data had extremely fast drives with excellent READ throughout and low latency, but the destination server had slower drives and WRITE performance. As soon as they changed the default value their pauses went away and they saved... well, just a few extra seconds, naturally :D. Unless your files are truly massive and your pauses are excruciating, it's probably not worth changing the setting to gain a few seconds and risk returning to the original timeout behavior. Most customers aren't reporting this because SMB client machine IO isn't faster than their SMB server machine, especially when their congested Wi-Fi, 1Gbs, or 10Gbs networks get figured in. So don't feel like you need to run out there and touch every server you own, ya wackadoos.

\n

 

\n

I didn't want people trying to troubleshoot a working SMB, so we decided to update the Performance Tuning Guidelines for Windows Server 2022 so that the Troubleshoot Cache and Memory Manager Performance Issues section explained the issue and the Performance tuning for SMB file servers section gave good tuning advice for IT pros. And now they do. 

\n

 

\n

Oh, and let me take the opportunity here to remind you that if you're into copying very large files, you should try SMB compression. We added that in Windows Server 2022 and Windows 11 and it is extremely dope. I have another blog post coming soon with more examples of said dope'itude, but you can get a feel for it with this demo:

\n

 

\n

\n

 

\n

Until next time,

\n

 

\n

Ned \"dirty cash\" Pyle

\n

 

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A lesson in kernel memory manager behaviors 

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Contributor","color":"333333","icon":null,"rankStyle":"TEXT"},"User:user:2205456":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:2205456","uid":2205456,"login":"DJ8014","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2023-12-16T19:35:16.411-08:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/s/gxcuf89792/m_assets/avatars/default/avatar-11.svg?time=0"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:37"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:gxcuf89792/user:2205456"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:4243846":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:4243846","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"BlogReplyMessage:message:4243846":{"__typename":"BlogReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:2205456"},"id":"message:4243846","revisionNum":1,"uid":4243846,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Blog:board:FileCAB"},"parent":{"__ref":"BlogTopicMessage:message:2637581"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:2637581"},"subject":"Re: The mystery of the slow file copy from the fast computer","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:4243846"},"body":"

Hello,

 

How would I go about opening a support case? And if MS decides to say whatever the problem is is not a bug, what kind of charge would be expected?

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h4xor1701 the kernel team that owns that code says they have made no changes to it. Please open a support case and have it investigated; if it ends up being a bug, there will be no charge. 

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Hi, do you have any update about this issue? Even with last updates the bug is still present as the system ignore the DWORD RegEdit entry

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Lara_willy I appreciate your guidance, but keep in mind is an out-of-box behaviour.
I personally do not want to troubleshoot this that far. It it is so easily reproducible I am out of words, and just sorry Ned could be shot as messenger. Imho this all should be taken to Windows Insider and PG level for Windows Server + Client as they behave exactly the same starting with Windows 10 1809 / Windows Server 2019.

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DJ8014 

I have the exact same problem, the file transfer freeze the moment the Ram cache increases to the size of exactly 5Gb and remain stuck until all cache get flushed to disks.

This is unconvenient for large media files and with a dedicated file server with plenty of RAM (32Gb in my case)

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The described behavior of large file copying pausing every 5GB transferred on a Windows Server 2019 cluster using SMB 3.1.1 could be due to several factors:

 

1. **SMB Configuration**: Check the SMB configuration settings on the Windows Server 2019 cluster to ensure optimal performance. Adjustments may be needed to optimize settings such as MaxBufferSize, MaxCredits, and EnableLargeMtu.

 

2. **Network Congestion**: Analyze network traffic and identify any bottlenecks or congestion points that may be causing the pauses during file transfers. This could involve examining network switch configurations, bandwidth utilization, and latency.

 

3. **Storage Configuration**: Evaluate the storage configuration, including Storage Spaces Direct and disk layout, to ensure it is optimized for high-performance file transfers. Check for any disk latency issues or RAID configurations that may be affecting performance.

 

4. **Antivirus and Filter Drivers**: Disable or temporarily uninstall antivirus software and any third-party filter drivers to see if they are causing the pauses during file transfers. Sometimes, these security measures can introduce unexpected delays.

 

5. **Windows Server 2019 Specific Issues**: Investigate if there are any known issues or hotfixes related to SMB file transfers on Windows Server 2019 that could be causing the behavior. Microsoft's support website and forums may provide insights into any reported issues and potential resolutions.

 

6. **Comparative Analysis with Windows Server 2012 R2**: Since the issue does not occur when copying to a Windows Server 2012 R2 destination, perform a comparative analysis of the SMB configurations, network settings, and storage configurations between the two environments to identify any differences that may be contributing to the behavior.

 

By systematically troubleshooting and addressing these potential factors, it should be possible to diagnose and resolve the issue with large file copying on the Windows Server 2019 cluster.

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This one DJ is also discussed und on Azure Stack HCI slack community. 

\n

bzzwords still \"lazy writeback / deferred writes\". It would be great to have a GPO to disable this if it doesn't fit the usecase. 

\n

 

\n

https://smartwindows.wordpress.com/2014/05/13/file-system-cachedirty-pages-threshold/

\n

 

\n

It's a complex matter. I strongly believe that before the use of SSD and NVMe and the gigantic amount of data these could shuffle (over the wire) we never looked into that closely. Now we have all the speed on the physical disk and wire, too (Ethernet, AOSP (USB 3.x) we basically revealed this. Also given the file sizes growing not necessarily the RAM amount of VMs and computers at the same speed.

\n

 

\n

Imho this issue is only happening when RAM Cache is saturated by files buffered. Smaller file size like 1-2 GB aren't a problem at all. 

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NedPyleThanks for looking into it. It would be a little surprising to me if this is totally unrelated the the subject of this article, given that \"Modified\" memory hitting 5 GB coincides with the transfer dropping to 0 (and then resuming when the \"Modified\" memory empties). But I'm certainly willing to entertain any possible fix, related or not.

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Dear NedPyle, two short questions. 

\n

Someone thinks to see this issue described here and rely on this article. 

\n

 

\n

Firstly, with the comments I am unsure if the original issue (not related to SMB in the first place or not. Is this one fixed?

\n

Secondly, when someone hit the issue originally described here, did Windows Explorer show drops or even 0 Transmission also supported by wireshark or WAC Packet Monitor also see SMB traffic stopped and then picking up \"saw tooth effect\"? 

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h4xor1701 DJ8014 You may be hitting a different issue here than this article (caused by an issue in networking that will manifest in SMB). Will reply back when I can tell you a fix release date. 

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