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Re: Hyper-V Server 2022
So, it just occurred to me that the business model for Azure Stack HCI is all wrong. The most straightforward way is to shift the payment from being centered on the OS, itself over to what actually connects to Azure. i.e. Instead of paying $10/core/month for the OS, you pay $10/core/month for each core *LINKED TO AZURE* (each core gets a 60-day free trial). The Azure Stack HCI OS would still have basic functionality without the connection to OS roughly equivalent to Hyper-V Server 2019. When you do link your HCI to Azure, that will unlock additional functionality, such as: * Not be forced to install pre-release software on Patch Tuesdays * Storage Spaces Direct * SDN * The actual functionality which Azure offers If that link to a paid version of Azure is not maintained, then those extra features become deactivated.14KViews3likes0CommentsRe: Hyper-V Server 2022
Elden_Christensen RE: Feature removal of Azure integration features So, the core question you should be asking yourself here is "Do we want Enthusiast users who don't mind using pre-release software for free be able to get their toes wet with Azure, or are we going to make them switch to a 60-day trial and then pay for it in order to do that?" Keep in mind: 1. Trying the Azure features will, at minimum, mean that an Azure account will get created. That is a foot in the door. 2. By using those Azure features, they will become more familiar with them and go deeper into the ecosystem. 3. As they go deeper into the ecosystem and start building things of higher importance/value, then the prospect of installing a supported/paid version of Azure HCI becomes better. 4. When the Azure credits get used up or expire, this could very well result in a paying Azure customer to keep using those paid Azure features, even if it's on an unsupported system (or they upgrade to a supported one). No problems missing out on non-Azure features like Storage Spaces Direct and SDN on a free tier. They weren't even in Hyper-V Server 2019. If anyone wants to use those, that is a good use case to use a trial/paid version of Azure HCI. It's your call. As I said before, it doesn't even affect me anymore because I have already moved on. I am just looking out for your best interest (to do a good job for Microsoft) if you were wanting Azure/Azure HCI to be as successful as can be. I think that you would want it to be easy to get hooked into Azure by making less barriers.14KViews0likes76CommentsRe: Hyper-V Server 2022
ChrisAtMaf Using Server Core with the Hyper-V role requires an additional Windows Server standard license. There may be an exception to needing an extra license if the Server Core with Hyper-V role is being used "solely" for host the licensed server, but then you lose a lot of flexibility with hosting an extra VM alongside, without getting into complexities of Nested virtualisation. You could also put your server on bare metal and then run other VMs off that, but we are trying to get away from bare metal. The old Hyper-V Server was great because it just eliminated all these licensing problems and considerations and you could just go ahead and do it. From a technical standpoint. Server Core with Hyper-V is basically the same thing. It is all about licensing. which is always complicated enough with Microsoft as it is.14KViews1like0CommentsRe: Hyper-V Server 2022
Brian Martin Yup, first this, and then NCE, then Partner Program minimum sales requirement. Hopefully Microsoft reverses all this, but as I was alluding to with my new found usage of FOSS, the writing is on the wall that Microsoft no longer care about Partners especially the small guys, and I am not the only one who is looking at alternatives to replace the entire Microsoft stack. It is really quite incredible how Microsoft have completely turned on their own Partners in less than 6 months. We are the guys who actually make their solutions work and they act like end users can just press a button to make everything work and not need any IT support, despite being highly complex products. It is basically a sinking ship at this point so that is why I am not even fussed anymore on whether this ends up being fixed, it just gives even more reason to use better products elsewhere when a free Hyper-V server doesn't exist. Microsoft are making the decision to not use them anymore quite easy. So actually, thanks Microsoft for discontinuing Hyper-V Server - you made me look at better solutions sooner.5.1KViews2likes0CommentsRe: Hyper-V Server 2022
Hi Elden_Christensen good to hear from you again. With option 2, to have access to a fully featured Preview Channel for free and without time or other limits but on the condition that you will be forced to install updates early to be the 'Guinea pig' (Similar to how the Windows Home users protect the Enterprise users) I think is a reasonable tradeoff/compromise. If we are getting something for free, putting in more testing and risk is reasonable. It also helps you avoid rolling out dodgy updates - We only know that Microsoft really need to improve on testing, the January 2022 Windows Updates were horrendous. We are also generally early adopters using it for our home labs and such so it would be good to try new features and give the early feedback. The trick here is running an effective Insider Program where the feedback is actually taken on board. So, you would probably want to offer an extremely basic level of support for the purposes of Beta testing. A forum for HCI Insiders would be nice too, when we get together, we can make better feedback. If you don't run it, we'd just gather on other Forums anyway so not a big deal if you don't. As far as being "not supported and without access to support", I am not fully sure what the implication is when that is said. Does that mean that you'd actually try to prevent running production workload with some kind of technical or licensing limitation? Because that would be a deal breaker. If it is just a case of making it clear "Here you go but you are on your own if something goes wrong" that that is fair, and what we would already expect for a free product. I would strongly recommend against crippling features to be any less than Hyper-V 2019. Whilst I might not need all the features possible, I can't speak for everyone who might, and even if they don't these are still features to help you get your foot in the door by having these powerusers try them out. HCI/Hyper-V Server is pretty feature limited as it is already, no need to make it even harder. For me, I am already started transitioned to something else so it doesn't matter that much to me anymore. Thanks to this experience I have discovered some other great options... it really opened the door to other FOSS options throughout their stack as well, and they have really come a long way since last time I played with Linux - You definitely have some tough competition in this space, I just hadn't realised it before. But if you actually end up listening to us and did something in this space, I would at least respect that, it might even help you slow down people leaving the Microsoft stack.5.1KViews3likes0CommentsRe: Hyper-V Server 2022
I have just started using TrueNAS SCALE which recently hit release and it's the best replacement I have found yet. The point being, there is a lot of other competition out there, Microsoft should have kept this up, because now they will lose market share.5.5KViews1like1CommentRe: Hyper-V Server 2022
I have looked into both XCP-NG and Proxmox. Both are good options. XCP-NG is good if you have several Physical host servers to manage and are connected via. LAN or site-to-site VPN (or SSH tunnel), but it doesn't have a package manager to install your own tools locally. Proxmox is good if you want the Physical host servers to be managed independently, it has plenty built in tools to do so and is built on Debian so you can add more. With Hyper-V Server I used to install Windows Admin Center and before that a Management PC operating as a Workgroup not a Domain to manage it, so for me, Proxmox is the closest match.6.5KViews1like0CommentsRe: Hyper-V Server 2022
Hi Elden_Christensen I appreciate that you are communicating directly with the community rather than being a faceless suit behind the scenes. I hope that you have taken much of our feedback on board. We want to work WITH you on this. I just did some sums on this on how it affects me. Current situation: Each of my Small Business clients has Dedicated physical hardware which is 1 socket with 2, 4, 6, or 8 cores. Hyper-V Server 2019 with 1 Windows Server Standard 2019 as the Guest VM, licensed with SPLA. There is also 1 (or more) Linux Guest OS for the few bits and bobs which work better under. Linux, and not bloating up the Windows install. The Windows Server Standard licensing costs about $30 USD/month, which is based on how many cores are on the physical hardware (minimum 8 cores per processor). (it's more in my currency and after tax, and the price was just jacked up as well, fun times). According to the https://www.microsoft.com/licensing/docs/view/Services-Provider-Use-Rights-SPUR?isToggleToList=True&lang=1&year=202, which is the document which governs the SPLA... Server Licenses (per core) 3. Standard edition Standard edition permits use of the server software in one OSE on the Licensed Server. Standard edition permits use of one Running Instance of the server software in the Physical OSE on the Licensed Server (in addition to one Virtual OSE), if the Physical OSE is used solely to host and Manage the Virtual OSE. Customer may assign additional Standard edition Licenses to the Licensed Server equal to the number specified in 2 above and run the server software in one additional OSE on the Licensed Server So what this means that if I upgrade to Windows Server 2022 (i.e. Server Core installation mode) on the Physical OS, I am good to host that Windows Server Standard Guest VM. But if I were to keep that Linux one going, I would either need to separately license the Host OS for Windows Server as well, because it would no longer fit into that "solely to host and Manage the Virtual OSE" (non plural) exception. Cost goes from about $30 USD to $60 USD. Azure Stack HCI option If I go the other route, which is to use Azure Stack HCI. I just realised that it licensed is PER CORE not per server. I missed that bit on my first reading of it. So for the 8 core machine, it will actually cost $80 USD per MONTH (more in my currency). and if that's not bad enough, minimum of 2 machines for Azure HCI to work, bringing it to $160 USD PER MONTH. This is actual insanity. There is no way a small company is paying that. Just paying for another Windows Standard @ $30 USD per month is the better option, but shouldn't be having to pay extra in the first place for something that was supposed to be included. This has doubled the price. So the options here are: Pay $180 USD per month for Azure Stack HCI (60 days free) Pay $30 USD per month for extra Windows Server licensing not previously necessary. $360 USD a year just to be able to run Linux VMs, really?? I rather buy an old PC to stick it on. But I shouldn't have to. Pay approx $332 USD per month for a similarly spec 8 Core machine on Azure (isn't Azure meant to be cheaper because of economies of scale???) (B8ms AUS region) Stick with Hyper-V 2019 and forego the improvements that come with Server 2022. Move the Linux VMs onto a separate machine, adding complexity, power usage, rack space. Move the Linux VMs to be nested VMs within the Windows Server VM. More complexity, less performance. Move hypervisor to another product. All I can really say to this is, if we don't get a no-cost version of Server 2022 to solely to host VMs, option 7 is going to be taken even though it means more work in learning a new product and migrating. Because it will be the first step of many to move away from the Microsoft ecosystem, because we just won't be able to trust Microsoft anymore to not screw over partners. I have put some projects on hold while I see how this plays out because it looks promising that Microsoft might listen, but I can only hold out for so long. If you have any non-binding proposals that you would like feedback on, or just outright give us a solution to this, I would be glad to listen. As I said before, I consider Microsoft a "Partner", because we help each other both ways. Thanks.9.1KViews4likes4CommentsRe: Hyper-V Server 2022
athendrix you almost had it except #2 take take features away from an existing product and there might be some deployments where Hyper-V on fat install makes sense. You're last point about being MS Signed, it would stop drivers and system utilities from working including RMM, taking away one of the prime reasons to have a windows based hypervisor not a Linux one. Let people use 3rd party backup, but having built in azure backup which only takes a few clicks or a script to set up, the azure account is already set up from activation, and is ready to put the backup into a Azure VM that can spin up within minutes would be a huge leg up on the competitors because of that integration, ease of use and low cost of storage, the only real cost would be if you actually end up spinning up that backup VM. Also makes for pathways to encourage movement of VMs to Azure by having them be able to be tested locally first before going live8KViews2likes3CommentsRe: Hyper-V Server 2022
Elden_Christensen wrote: what is being discussed here in this thread is the free 'Microsoft Hyper-V Server' SKU. Which is a free OS download just for running VMs. I think that everyone in this thread already knows this, and this is what is upsetting. Installing Windows Server core and then adding the Hyper-V role to that is functionally the same thing on a technical level. But what we want is a break on the licensing structure so that we can continue to use this function without the onerous licensing requirements, especially when adding Linux VMs to the mix. If you want to move us towards Azure Stack HCI, OK Great, make us a untimed free tier version of it which is functionally the same as the Hyper-V SKU, including single-host scenarios. I can't speak for everyone, but personally I don't think that it would be too much of a trade-off to be expected for register an Azure account to be able to use the free Azure Stack HCI, and this would at least achieve some of your goals to get more users at least signed up for Azure and therefore have all the other (paid) offerings of Azure at our fingertips. Especially features like Azure Site Recovery could be super useful for our use case. I would even go one step further, and be willing to meet you half way on this, where maybe you could offer Azure Stack HCI for free, on the condition that at least 1 VM per account is set up to a untimed free tier of Azure Site Recovery is set up, even if the Azure Site Recovery not incurring charges because it hasn't actually been activated to go live. Yes I know that many will just set this up just to get the free Azure Stack HCI and not actually use it and therefore not paying any money at all, but at least you would be getting your foot in the door, especially if a disaster were to strike then it would already be set up and they could instantly become a paying customer. I would also suggest that the Azure Stack HCI -> Azure Site Recovery linking process be as easy as possible. The alternative here is that everyone in this thread is instead of sticking with a dead platform (2019 version) they are going to go with a completely free alternative like ESXi free tier, Proxmox or XCP-ng, which has no future potential for a connection to Azure. We are the ones who would most likely start out on something free and then work our way up Microsoft the stack to the paid products (and my business spends many thousands a month on Microsoft licensing as it is, my bank account proves it). Your Azure Stack HCI has no chance of success without us being on board. It is a two-way street here.10KViews3likes3CommentsRe: Hyper-V Server 2022
Elden_Christensen wrote: With that said, I'm curious how you were licensing the guest OS's on Hyper-V Server? I am using Hyper-V Server 2019 paired with Windows Server 2019 Standard licensed under SPLA which I host for my customers, plus a Linux VM for management and other tasks not suitable for Windows Server. It works great, I like the low memory footprint, ease of management (Windows Admin Center), and being able to move VMs between physical hosts easily if need be. Under the licensing terms of SPLA (http://www.aka.ms/SPUR) I am allowed to use the full Windows Server 2019 for the sole purpose of hosting the licensed server: Standard edition permits use of one Running Instance of the server software in the Physical OSE on the Licensed Server (in addition to one Virtual OSE), if the Physical OSE is used solely to host and Manage the Virtual OSE. Running Instance means an Instance of software that is loaded into memory and for which one or more instructions have been executed. (Customer “Runs an Instance” of software by loading it into memory and executing one or more of its instructions.) Once running, an Instance is considered to be running (whether or not its instructions continue to execute) until it is removed from memory. Instance means an image of software that is created by executing the software’s setup or install procedure or by duplicating an existing Instance. Physical OSE means an OSE that is configured to run directly on a physical hardware system. The operating system Instance used to run hardware virtualization software or to provide hardware virtualization services is considered part of the Physical OSE. Operating System Environment (OSE) means all or part of an operating system Instance, or all or part of a virtual (or otherwise emulated) operating system Instance which enables separate machine identity (primary computer name or similar unique identifier) or separate administrative rights, and instances of applications, if any, configured to run on the operating system Instance or parts identified above. A physical hardware system can have one Physical OSE and/or one or more Virtual OSE. Virtual OSE means an OSE that is configured to run on a virtual hardware system. Licensed Server means a single Server to which a License is assigned. For purposes of this definition, a hardware partition or blade is considered to be a separate Server. Server means a physical hardware system capable of running server software. License means the right to download, install, access and use a Product. Manage OSE means to solicit or receive data about, configure, or give instructions to the hardware or software that is directly or indirectly associated with the OSE. It does not include discovering the presence of a device or OSE. As you can see, the wording is very convoluted. And everyone knows that if you ask 5 different Microsoft Reps what the License means, you will get 5 different answers. I interpret this to mean that the physical machine can run WS2019 in Hyper-V to run the licensed WS2019 in a VM, and no other VM. Even if that VM had it's own license as well or had a license belonging to another customer or was a Linux VM. It doesn't let me spin up a second Hyper-V host without extra licensing to act as a Hot Spare. I rather remove the ambiguity of this and stick with Hyper-V 2019 to avoid licensing confusion and not have to worry about it, and having maximum flexibility in putting any VM onto the host that I need to. I am not going to be buying Azure just to host a VM, thanks but no thanks, I will switch to free software before I would do that. I am pleased that I can keep this going until 2029, which I appreciate, but we all know that Microsoft starts putting less effort into maintaining old products well before the official EOL. Plus we won't be getting WS2022 features such as being able to run the Hyper-V MMC snap-in locally, or AMD-V Nested Virtualisation. If it was about some people using Windows Hyper-V as a Desktop OS, although I never heard of that, and it's against the license, you could have put in watermarks and the like to discourage such use. Hopefully the licensing of WS2022 would be loosened up at some point to to be less restrictive in using it only as a Hyper-V host189KViews2likes0Comments
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