As we all know, the cloud paradigm shifts in IT continue. When I worked in corporate IT - heck, when I started blogging out here - on-prem was really all there was. Active Directory, GPOs and WINS were all the rage. Outbound Internet access was used to look at wedding photos or research TechNet about recovering from an accidental AD deletion. Inbound Internet traffic was mostly remote users coming back into the corporate LAN – via VPN or <gulp> modem (where are my Shiva LAN Rover fans?).
A lot has changed. The Internet is now your LAN. Cloud services, SaaS, PaaS, anywhere/always-on connectivity, etc. are all mainstream now.
As I chat with enterprise customers in cloud strategy discussions, a few topics always come up once we get to the PC deployment and management aspects of that convo.
“Should we do Hybrid Azure AD Join or Azure AD Join?”
Organizations generally have a well-developed on-prem PC deployment/management solution that includes AD-Join as a cornerstone of that process. How does that change as we look forward?
There are two major directions for this “join” question as we go into the future:
Hybrid AAD Join (HAADJ) extends the existing AD model and registers AD joined PCs into AAD to allow for cloud capabilities such as device-based Conditional Access for Domain-Joined PCs.
HAADJ is great for existing AD Joined PCs, but in some ways, it can perpetuate a backwards-facing ‘on-premises centric’ model and reduce (or complicate) some key benefits that the cloud offers
AAD Join (AADJ) recenters device join in a forward-facing ‘cloud centric’ position that brings benefits today and tomorrow, on- and off-prem.
Azure AD Join allows a user to natively join an approved device to your cloud directory from anywhere, without the need to contact the LAN/AD and establishes the device’s foundation for zero trust
BONUS – AADJ can (and should) require MFA as part of the join process
The integration between AD and AAD provides nearly 100% backwards compatibility for on-prem resource access from an AADJ PC
Typical user-based kerberos authentication, such as file-share access and printing, “just works” for sync'd AD users on an AADJ’d PC.
One uncommon gotcha here - situations that require machine-based kerberos authentication may not work because the AADJ PC doesn't have a computer account in the local AD (and no, 'Device Writeback' from AAD doesn't create a true computer account in AD)
If you haven’t guessed it yet, I strongly recommend you use AADJ for new Windows PCs, and use HAADJ to extend your current AD-Joined Windows PC estate into the cloud.
Today, there isn’t a tool to migrate or transition a PC from an AD joined state to an AAD Joined state - so the preferred time to the change from AD to AAD centric is at “new device” time – PC refresh or replacement scenarios.
OneDrive ‘Known Folder Move’ allows you to redirect the profile folders (Documents, Pictures, Desktop) from the local device to OneDrive – that helps make sure user’s data and documents follow them when a new PC is issued
NOTE: Beyond join type, you should consider supplementing existing on-prem GPO/SCCM management by bringing Intune into the management solution, either by stand-alone enrollment or by enabling Co-management
NOTE: The Windows 10+ OS is cloud-aware and most of the “client-side” aspects of our cloud services such as Autopilot, Endpoint Manager, Endpoint DLP, etc. are built right into Windows. That means there isn’t an agent to install/manage, and as Windows is patched/updated, that client-side code is serviced as well.
“But we can’t do AADJ because we still rely on GPOs and AADJ PCs don’t support GPOs”
Well, it’s true that AADJ PCs won’t connect to the SYSVOL share on Domain Controllers in AD and process GPOs. However, we’ve done a lot of work in MEM to bring 1000s of GPO settings directly to the cloud. So, while your on-prem DCs might not distribute the settings to AADJ’d PCs, I’d bet most of the actual settings you define in your GPOs can now be defined in MEM – and delivered “over the air” to AADJ’d PCs via the Windows built-in MDM channel.
We continue to add ‘native’ MDM settings to MEM, as well as more and more ADMX-based settings.
We also have Group Policy Analytics in MEM that allows you to upload a backup/export of your GPOs into MEM, which then evaluates those settings for MDM parity - and can even generate a comparable MDM policy.
“I’m intrigued … I’ll dip a toe … how do I get started?”
I propose starting with a simple ‘tabletop exercise’ to establish your key scenarios – grab a pen and a napkin, crack open Excel, go find a whiteboard… whatever gets you and your team thinking. Line-out the typical scenarios for your current PCs. Now, map those over to an AADJ’d PC and review/consider the gaps/exceptions.
If you’re like me and you learn by doing, once you have some scenarios documented, roll up those sleeves and test! I like Friday afternoons for doing alot of my learning/PoC testing/validation - hence the timing of this post. There is no time like the present 🙂
Setup an AADJ’d PC for your environment and see what your experience is. Run through typical activities. What works? What doesn’t? Document your efforts and results then prioritize any gaps.
Evaluate your actively linked GPOs for meaningful settings and get those into MEM – either manually creating policies or via Policy Analytics (the savvy-eyed reader will notice the GPMC screen shot below highlights the active/linked GPOs that I imported into my Group Policy Analytics workspace above)
TIP: Take some time to review/rationalize your GPO inventory – 22 years of GPO history likely contains some technical debt (I’m looking at you, settings defined in ‘aught-six’ for the Windows XP deployment).
“We want Autopilot”
Autopilot is a SUPER popular capability as it allows you to deploy a well-managed “business-ready” PC to a user anywhere there is Internet connectivity.
Autopilot for AADJ PCs is slick and works very well.
Autopilot for Hybrid AADJ PCs is a reality, too. It works. And it is supported. It can back-haul a device into on-prem AD from the Internet. That said, there are a lot more moving parts, timing idiosyncrasies and other orchestrations involved in Autopilot for HAADJ. This makes our support scope very rigid and very narrow. It is considerably more complex to setup, troubleshoot and operate than Autopilot + AADJ. Do yourself a favor and standardize on AADJ for your Autopilot deployments; you’ll thank me later.
The Constraints of Time
Microsoft supports both of these directions - HAADJ and AADJ - including with/without Autopilot in the mix. However, we are limited by the clock – and we spend more time focused on cloud-centric solutions. That's just a fact.
Your time is limited, too, and you’ll spend it one way or another. You can spend it dragging ‘yesterday’s models’ into tomorrow (i.e. trying to get Autopilot + HAADJ working consistently) or you can spend it on forward-facing efforts (i.e. get your settings into MEM and validate Autopilot + AADJ).
Either way, I appreciate you taking some of your time to read this post
What’s missing?
We’ve been on this modern management journey for a while now and we’ve made lots of progress, but we know the work is never done. If you need settings that are missing from MEM, or you’re hitting significant blockers to using AADJ, drop a comment below … I’m curious - and our Product Groups (PGs) thirst for your feedback to help them prioritize their efforts.
Special thanks to Arnab Mitra and Scott Hargrove for their inputs, experiences and feedback as I developed this post.
Hilde
P.S. I bet there are still some WINS deployments out there.
My customer environment has 802.1x network access control for their wired campus network and the certification used is from auto enrollment from their existing CA when joining AD. Is there a way to maintain 802.1x network access control with certificate authentication while moving to AADJ? Use Intune to distribute certificate?
It's my theory that since Nadella came from Azure and since Wall Street likes monthly recurring predictable revenue, Microsoft has just given up on Windows Server. The last two editions (2019 and 2022) have been minor incremental updates on 2016 with more features being deprecated than new features appearing. But they can't just kill it, that would tank them, so they are killing it through attrition.
I think it's a big mistake to let that much go. It's really easy to switch from Azure to AWS, especially when you start containerizing everything and nobody wants to pay extra fees for containerization, like you do with AKS and Azure HCI.
Chad Simmons The problem is now we pay for Windows, the CALs, ***AND*** cloud. It's not like AAD replaces the needs for the other two. Perhaps if it actually was feature comparable, but it's not. Almost every company needs on-prem AD (or in-Azure deployed Windows Server "on-prem" AD) whether or not they are joining their laptops to the on-prem AD.
Chad Simmons ADDS is an essential part of Windows Server. I don't need to pay a separate license fee for ADDS to use it for policy and credentials management. With AAD and using windows server, I am paying for AAD, the windows server license, and then Azure Arc or MEM to push policy. Where once I just paid for that one OS license and got those features, and I didn't need to pay extra per device if I kept things simple.
Great article, but the problem with aadj is that you are required to fork over more money to do something that has been free for over the last 20 years. Microsoft should have focused on integration adds and adfs so that you could have native saml/oauth at the push of a button. Part of the reason companies are moving away from Windows servers is that the new technology actually costs more and does less. Microsoft needs to advocate for the user like it use to, and improve items both onprem and in the cloud. Since Microsoft is a hybrid company
You've taken the advice of the Mimikatz Author to disable the Office vulnerability introduced by #follina. You've decided to block the "ms-msdt" driven diagnostics functionality.
How would this advice "Setup an AADJ’d PC for your environment and see what your experience is. Run through typical activities. What works? What doesn’t? Document your efforts and results then prioritize any gaps.", capture the absence of this setting as a gap? Because if you do not capture it, unless I am mistaken, you're reintroducing the vulnerability by following this methodology.
One of the things that is seldomly mentioned is the lack of an ability to patch during autopilot.
You're delivering a system over the internet that will be used with an internet connection the minute the user logs on. Being able to deliver a fully patched system (Windows, Office / Microsoft Apps for enterprise, 3rd party apps), all of that should be patched prior to the user opening mail, browsing the web, or office documents or any of the other common infection vectors.
It's equally simple to suggest to look for meaningful settings, I've been asking for real analytics for quite a while now. What does meaningful mean? Going through 22 years of history to define meaningful is a big exercise for a ton of organizations.
That being said, this is about the first time I've seen a public statement about the need for doing that rationalization effort instead of advocating to 'just' start over.
As to the approach of just trying and see what works and doesn't work, it's not necessarily about working or non-working. The aim should be to deliver an at least equally secure (and productive) device to the end user. A lot of organizations can use help in making that a reality.
As usual, Microsoft recommends a big paradigm shift before it's ready. AADJ is great, but it just has so many gaps. If a new technology does not have 99% fidelity with an older technology (and I'm not talking about deprecated or backwards-thinking features), then it's just not ready. And MS does this all the time. How long have we been hearing that WADS completely replaces MMCs? It doesn't. Not even close! Try looking through event logs (a very basic admin task) with WADS and tell me it's ready for primetime.
I know I know, HAADJ is the solution for this. But it's obviously clear MS wants us to cast off the old and embrace the new. Well, give us the tools then. Instead of getting us 65% of the way there, teasing new features, then chanting "old way of thinking," give us what we need. Have you learned nothing from Azure Monitor (formerly Log Analytics, formerly OMS)? It's just *not good* and *not ready* nearly a decade on. And AADJ and WADS feel exactly the same way.
Alternatively, continue to invest in your legacy technologies instead of feature freezing them. There is no reason we don't have an easy tunneling technology for on-prem AD. There's just absolutely no reason for it. And I don't mean AOVPN, which works great when it works, but is complicated to set up and troubleshoot. Why not just have a simple and automatic, certificated based SYSVOL, Kerberos, and LDAP tunneling technology?
Why not fix the bugs in MMC?
Etc.
Come on, Microsoft, do better.
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Some discussion around Hybrid Join vs native AAD Join for Windows PCs as we go further on the journey of endpoint modernization...
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As we all know, the cloud paradigm shifts in IT continue. When I worked in corporate IT - heck, when I started blogging out here - on-prem was really all there was. Active Directory, GPOs and WINS were all the rage. Outbound Internet access was used to look at wedding photos or research TechNet about recovering from an accidental AD deletion. Inbound Internet traffic was mostly remote users coming back into the corporate LAN – via VPN or <gulp> modem (where are my Shiva LAN Rover fans?).
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A lot has changed. The Internet is now your LAN. Cloud services, SaaS, PaaS, anywhere/always-on connectivity, etc. are all mainstream now.
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As I chat with enterprise customers in cloud strategy discussions, a few topics always come up once we get to the PC deployment and management aspects of that convo.
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“Should we do Hybrid Azure AD Join or Azure AD Join?”
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Organizations generally have a well-developed on-prem PC deployment/management solution that includes AD-Join as a cornerstone of that process. How does that change as we look forward?
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There are two major directions for this “join” question as we go into the future:
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Hybrid AAD Join (HAADJ) extends the existing AD model and registers AD joined PCs into AAD to allow for cloud capabilities such as device-based Conditional Access for Domain-Joined PCs. \n
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HAADJ is great for existing AD Joined PCs, but in some ways, it can perpetuate a backwards-facing ‘on-premises centric’ model and reduce (or complicate) some key benefits that the cloud offers
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AAD Join (AADJ) recenters device join in a forward-facing ‘cloud centric’ position that brings benefits today and tomorrow, on- and off-prem. \n
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Azure AD Join allows a user to natively join an approved device to your cloud directory from anywhere, without the need to contact the LAN/AD and establishes the device’s foundation for zero trust\n
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BONUS – AADJ can (and should) require MFA as part of the join process
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The integration between AD and AAD provides nearly 100% backwards compatibility for on-prem resource access from an AADJ PC\n
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Typical user-based kerberos authentication, such as file-share access and printing, “just works” for sync'd AD users on an AADJ’d PC.
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One uncommon gotcha here - situations that require machine-based kerberos authentication may not work because the AADJ PC doesn't have a computer account in the local AD (and no, 'Device Writeback' from AAD doesn't create a true computer account in AD)
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If you haven’t guessed it yet, I strongly recommend you use AADJ for new Windows PCs, and use HAADJ to extend your current AD-Joined Windows PC estate into the cloud. \n
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Today, there isn’t a tool to migrate or transition a PC from an AD joined state to an AAD Joined state - so the preferred time to the change from AD to AAD centric is at “new device” time – PC refresh or replacement scenarios.
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OneDrive ‘Known Folder Move’ allows you to redirect the profile folders (Documents, Pictures, Desktop) from the local device to OneDrive – that helps make sure user’s data and documents follow them when a new PC is issued\n
NOTE: Beyond join type, you should consider supplementing existing on-prem GPO/SCCM management by bringing Intune into the management solution, either by stand-alone enrollment or by enabling Co-management
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NOTE: The Windows 10+ OS is cloud-aware and most of the “client-side” aspects of our cloud services such as Autopilot, Endpoint Manager, Endpoint DLP, etc. are built right into Windows. That means there isn’t an agent to install/manage, and as Windows is patched/updated, that client-side code is serviced as well.
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“But we can’t do AADJ because we still rely on GPOs and AADJ PCs don’t support GPOs”
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Well, it’s true that AADJ PCs won’t connect to the SYSVOL share on Domain Controllers in AD and process GPOs. However, we’ve done a lot of work in MEM to bring 1000s of GPO settings directly to the cloud. So, while your on-prem DCs might not distribute the settings to AADJ’d PCs, I’d bet most of the actual settings you define in your GPOs can now be defined in MEM – and delivered “over the air” to AADJ’d PCs via the Windows built-in MDM channel.
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We continue to add ‘native’ MDM settings to MEM, as well as more and more ADMX-based settings. \n
We also have Group Policy Analytics in MEM that allows you to upload a backup/export of your GPOs into MEM, which then evaluates those settings for MDM parity - and can even generate a comparable MDM policy. \n
“I’m intrigued … I’ll dip a toe … how do I get started?”
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I propose starting with a simple ‘tabletop exercise’ to establish your key scenarios – grab a pen and a napkin, crack open Excel, go find a whiteboard… whatever gets you and your team thinking. Line-out the typical scenarios for your current PCs. Now, map those over to an AADJ’d PC and review/consider the gaps/exceptions.
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If you’re like me and you learn by doing, once you have some scenarios documented, roll up those sleeves and test! I like Friday afternoons for doing alot of my learning/PoC testing/validation - hence the timing of this post. There is no time like the present 🙂
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Setup an AADJ’d PC for your environment and see what your experience is. Run through typical activities. What works? What doesn’t? Document your efforts and results then prioritize any gaps.
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Evaluate your actively linked GPOs for meaningful settings and get those into MEM – either manually creating policies or via Policy Analytics (the savvy-eyed reader will notice the GPMC screen shot below highlights the active/linked GPOs that I imported into my Group Policy Analytics workspace above)
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TIP: Take some time to review/rationalize your GPO inventory – 22 years of GPO history likely contains some technical debt (I’m looking at you, settings defined in ‘aught-six’ for the Windows XP deployment).
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\n
\n
\n
“We want Autopilot”
\n
Autopilot is a SUPER popular capability as it allows you to deploy a well-managed “business-ready” PC to a user anywhere there is Internet connectivity.
\n
\n
Autopilot for AADJ PCs is slick and works very well.
\n
Autopilot for Hybrid AADJ PCs is a reality, too. It works. And it is supported. It can back-haul a device into on-prem AD from the Internet. That said, there are a lot more moving parts, timing idiosyncrasies and other orchestrations involved in Autopilot for HAADJ. This makes our support scope very rigid and very narrow. It is considerably more complex to setup, troubleshoot and operate than Autopilot + AADJ. Do yourself a favor and standardize on AADJ for your Autopilot deployments; you’ll thank me later.
\n
\n
\n
The Constraints of Time
\n
\n
Microsoft supports both of these directions - HAADJ and AADJ - including with/without Autopilot in the mix. However, we are limited by the clock – and we spend more time focused on cloud-centric solutions. That's just a fact.
\n
Your time is limited, too, and you’ll spend it one way or another. You can spend it dragging ‘yesterday’s models’ into tomorrow (i.e. trying to get Autopilot + HAADJ working consistently) or you can spend it on forward-facing efforts (i.e. get your settings into MEM and validate Autopilot + AADJ). \n
\n
Either way, I appreciate you taking some of your time to read this post
\n
\n
\n
\n
\n
What’s missing?
\n
We’ve been on this modern management journey for a while now and we’ve made lots of progress, but we know the work is never done. If you need settings that are missing from MEM, or you’re hitting significant blockers to using AADJ, drop a comment below … I’m curious - and our Product Groups (PGs) thirst for your feedback to help them prioritize their efforts.
\n
\n
Special thanks to Arnab Mitra and Scott Hargrove for their inputs, experiences and feedback as I developed this post.
\n
\n
Hilde
\n
\n
P.S. I bet there are still some WINS deployments out there.
","body@stringLength":"13342","rawBody":"
As we all know, the cloud paradigm shifts in IT continue. When I worked in corporate IT - heck, when I started blogging out here - on-prem was really all there was. Active Directory, GPOs and WINS were all the rage. Outbound Internet access was used to look at wedding photos or research TechNet about recovering from an accidental AD deletion. Inbound Internet traffic was mostly remote users coming back into the corporate LAN – via VPN or <gulp> modem (where are my Shiva LAN Rover fans?).
\n
\n
A lot has changed. The Internet is now your LAN. Cloud services, SaaS, PaaS, anywhere/always-on connectivity, etc. are all mainstream now.
\n
\n
As I chat with enterprise customers in cloud strategy discussions, a few topics always come up once we get to the PC deployment and management aspects of that convo.
\n
\n
“Should we do Hybrid Azure AD Join or Azure AD Join?”
\n
Organizations generally have a well-developed on-prem PC deployment/management solution that includes AD-Join as a cornerstone of that process. How does that change as we look forward?
\n
\n
There are two major directions for this “join” question as we go into the future:
\n
\n
Hybrid AAD Join (HAADJ) extends the existing AD model and registers AD joined PCs into AAD to allow for cloud capabilities such as device-based Conditional Access for Domain-Joined PCs. \n
\n
HAADJ is great for existing AD Joined PCs, but in some ways, it can perpetuate a backwards-facing ‘on-premises centric’ model and reduce (or complicate) some key benefits that the cloud offers
\n
\n
\n
AAD Join (AADJ) recenters device join in a forward-facing ‘cloud centric’ position that brings benefits today and tomorrow, on- and off-prem. \n
\n
Azure AD Join allows a user to natively join an approved device to your cloud directory from anywhere, without the need to contact the LAN/AD and establishes the device’s foundation for zero trust\n
\n
BONUS – AADJ can (and should) require MFA as part of the join process
\n
\n
\n
The integration between AD and AAD provides nearly 100% backwards compatibility for on-prem resource access from an AADJ PC\n
\n
Typical user-based kerberos authentication, such as file-share access and printing, “just works” for sync'd AD users on an AADJ’d PC.
\n
One uncommon gotcha here - situations that require machine-based kerberos authentication may not work because the AADJ PC doesn't have a computer account in the local AD (and no, 'Device Writeback' from AAD doesn't create a true computer account in AD)
\n
\n
\n
If you haven’t guessed it yet, I strongly recommend you use AADJ for new Windows PCs, and use HAADJ to extend your current AD-Joined Windows PC estate into the cloud. \n
\n
Today, there isn’t a tool to migrate or transition a PC from an AD joined state to an AAD Joined state - so the preferred time to the change from AD to AAD centric is at “new device” time – PC refresh or replacement scenarios.
\n
OneDrive ‘Known Folder Move’ allows you to redirect the profile folders (Documents, Pictures, Desktop) from the local device to OneDrive – that helps make sure user’s data and documents follow them when a new PC is issued\n
NOTE: Beyond join type, you should consider supplementing existing on-prem GPO/SCCM management by bringing Intune into the management solution, either by stand-alone enrollment or by enabling Co-management
\n
\n
NOTE: The Windows 10+ OS is cloud-aware and most of the “client-side” aspects of our cloud services such as Autopilot, Endpoint Manager, Endpoint DLP, etc. are built right into Windows. That means there isn’t an agent to install/manage, and as Windows is patched/updated, that client-side code is serviced as well.
\n
\n
“But we can’t do AADJ because we still rely on GPOs and AADJ PCs don’t support GPOs”
\n
Well, it’s true that AADJ PCs won’t connect to the SYSVOL share on Domain Controllers in AD and process GPOs. However, we’ve done a lot of work in MEM to bring 1000s of GPO settings directly to the cloud. So, while your on-prem DCs might not distribute the settings to AADJ’d PCs, I’d bet most of the actual settings you define in your GPOs can now be defined in MEM – and delivered “over the air” to AADJ’d PCs via the Windows built-in MDM channel.
\n
\n
\n
We continue to add ‘native’ MDM settings to MEM, as well as more and more ADMX-based settings. \n
We also have Group Policy Analytics in MEM that allows you to upload a backup/export of your GPOs into MEM, which then evaluates those settings for MDM parity - and can even generate a comparable MDM policy. \n
“I’m intrigued … I’ll dip a toe … how do I get started?”
\n
I propose starting with a simple ‘tabletop exercise’ to establish your key scenarios – grab a pen and a napkin, crack open Excel, go find a whiteboard… whatever gets you and your team thinking. Line-out the typical scenarios for your current PCs. Now, map those over to an AADJ’d PC and review/consider the gaps/exceptions.
\n
\n
If you’re like me and you learn by doing, once you have some scenarios documented, roll up those sleeves and test! I like Friday afternoons for doing alot of my learning/PoC testing/validation - hence the timing of this post. There is no time like the present 🙂
\n
\n
Setup an AADJ’d PC for your environment and see what your experience is. Run through typical activities. What works? What doesn’t? Document your efforts and results then prioritize any gaps.
\n
Evaluate your actively linked GPOs for meaningful settings and get those into MEM – either manually creating policies or via Policy Analytics (the savvy-eyed reader will notice the GPMC screen shot below highlights the active/linked GPOs that I imported into my Group Policy Analytics workspace above)
\n
\n
TIP: Take some time to review/rationalize your GPO inventory – 22 years of GPO history likely contains some technical debt (I’m looking at you, settings defined in ‘aught-six’ for the Windows XP deployment).
\n
\n
\n
\n
“We want Autopilot”
\n
Autopilot is a SUPER popular capability as it allows you to deploy a well-managed “business-ready” PC to a user anywhere there is Internet connectivity.
\n
\n
Autopilot for AADJ PCs is slick and works very well.
\n
Autopilot for Hybrid AADJ PCs is a reality, too. It works. And it is supported. It can back-haul a device into on-prem AD from the Internet. That said, there are a lot more moving parts, timing idiosyncrasies and other orchestrations involved in Autopilot for HAADJ. This makes our support scope very rigid and very narrow. It is considerably more complex to setup, troubleshoot and operate than Autopilot + AADJ. Do yourself a favor and standardize on AADJ for your Autopilot deployments; you’ll thank me later.
\n
\n
\n
The Constraints of Time
\n
\n
Microsoft supports both of these directions - HAADJ and AADJ - including with/without Autopilot in the mix. However, we are limited by the clock – and we spend more time focused on cloud-centric solutions. That's just a fact.
\n
Your time is limited, too, and you’ll spend it one way or another. You can spend it dragging ‘yesterday’s models’ into tomorrow (i.e. trying to get Autopilot + HAADJ working consistently) or you can spend it on forward-facing efforts (i.e. get your settings into MEM and validate Autopilot + AADJ). \n
\n
Either way, I appreciate you taking some of your time to read this post
\n
\n
\n
\n
\n
What’s missing?
\n
We’ve been on this modern management journey for a while now and we’ve made lots of progress, but we know the work is never done. If you need settings that are missing from MEM, or you’re hitting significant blockers to using AADJ, drop a comment below … I’m curious - and our Product Groups (PGs) thirst for your feedback to help them prioritize their efforts.
\n
\n
Special thanks to Arnab Mitra and Scott Hargrove for their inputs, experiences and feedback as I developed this post.
\n
\n
Hilde
\n
\n
P.S. I bet there are still some WINS deployments out there.
Some discussion around Hybrid Join vs native AAD Join for Windows PCs as we go further on the journey of endpoint modernization...
\n
\n
\n
\n
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To AAD Join or Not … That is the Question","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:4201852"},"body":"
My customer environment has 802.1x network access control for their wired campus network and the certification used is from auto enrollment from their existing CA when joining AD. Is there a way to maintain 802.1x network access control with certificate authentication while moving to AADJ? Use Intune to distribute certificate?
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It's my theory that since Nadella came from Azure and since Wall Street likes monthly recurring predictable revenue, Microsoft has just given up on Windows Server. The last two editions (2019 and 2022) have been minor incremental updates on 2016 with more features being deprecated than new features appearing. But they can't just kill it, that would tank them, so they are killing it through attrition.
I think it's a big mistake to let that much go. It's really easy to switch from Azure to AWS, especially when you start containerizing everything and nobody wants to pay extra fees for containerization, like you do with AKS and Azure HCI.
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Chad Simmons The problem is now we pay for Windows, the CALs, ***AND*** cloud. It's not like AAD replaces the needs for the other two. Perhaps if it actually was feature comparable, but it's not. Almost every company needs on-prem AD (or in-Azure deployed Windows Server \"on-prem\" AD) whether or not they are joining their laptops to the on-prem AD.
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Chad Simmons ADDS is an essential part of Windows Server. I don't need to pay a separate license fee for ADDS to use it for policy and credentials management. With AAD and using windows server, I am paying for AAD, the windows server license, and then Azure Arc or MEM to push policy. Where once I just paid for that one OS license and got those features, and I didn't need to pay extra per device if I kept things simple.
","body@stripHtml({\"removeProcessingText\":false,\"removeSpoilerMarkup\":false,\"removeTocMarkup\":false,\"truncateLength\":200})@stringLength":"208","kudosSumWeight":1,"repliesCount":0,"postTime":"2022-06-23T07:00:14.759-07:00","lastPublishTime":"2022-06-23T07:00:14.759-07:00","metrics":{"__typename":"MessageMetrics","views":12172},"visibilityScope":"PUBLIC","placeholder":false,"originalMessageForPlaceholder":null,"entityType":"BLOG_REPLY","eventPath":"category:cis/category:microsoft-security/category:products-services/category:communities/community:gxcuf89792board:CoreInfrastructureandSecurityBlog/message:3435768/message:3543676","replies":{"__typename":"MessageConnection","pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null},"edges":[]},"attachments":{"__typename":"AttachmentConnection","edges":[],"pageInfo":{"__typename":"PageInfo","hasNextPage":false,"endCursor":null,"hasPreviousPage":false,"startCursor":null}},"customFields":[]},"Rank:rank:35":{"__typename":"Rank","id":"rank:35","position":16,"name":"Iron Contributor","color":"333333","icon":null,"rankStyle":"TEXT"},"User:user:242670":{"__typename":"User","id":"user:242670","uid":242670,"login":"Chad Simmons","biography":null,"registrationData":{"__typename":"RegistrationData","status":null,"registrationTime":"2018-11-15T06:22:53.127-08:00"},"deleted":false,"email":"","avatar":{"__typename":"UserAvatar","url":"https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/t5/s/gxcuf89792/images/dS0yNDI2NzAtMzE3Njk4aTdEMzI3ODYyMENDQUNCNTc"},"rank":{"__ref":"Rank:rank:35"},"entityType":"USER","eventPath":"community:gxcuf89792/user:242670"},"ModerationData:moderation_data:3543638":{"__typename":"ModerationData","id":"moderation_data:3543638","status":"APPROVED","rejectReason":null,"isReportedAbuse":false,"rejectUser":null,"rejectTime":null,"rejectActorType":null},"BlogReplyMessage:message:3543638":{"__typename":"BlogReplyMessage","author":{"__ref":"User:user:242670"},"id":"message:3543638","revisionNum":1,"uid":3543638,"depth":1,"hasGivenKudo":false,"subscribed":false,"board":{"__ref":"Blog:board:CoreInfrastructureandSecurityBlog"},"parent":{"__ref":"BlogTopicMessage:message:3435768"},"conversation":{"__ref":"Conversation:conversation:3435768"},"subject":"Re: To AAD Join or Not … That is the Question","moderationData":{"__ref":"ModerationData:moderation_data:3543638"},"body":"
JSteskal ADDS (active directory domain services) has never been free.
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Michael,
Great article, but the problem with aadj is that you are required to fork over more money to do something that has been free for over the last 20 years. Microsoft should have focused on integration adds and adfs so that you could have native saml/oauth at the push of a button. Part of the reason companies are moving away from Windows servers is that the new technology actually costs more and does less. Microsoft needs to advocate for the user like it use to, and improve items both onprem and in the cloud. Since Microsoft is a hybrid company
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MichaelHildebrand this is a great article to help walk a customer admin/engineer though the HAAD / AAD story.
It would be fantastic to have a similar article from Microsoft targeted to management (C-suite / executives) to help convey the message.
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Case in point on my last paragraph.
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You've taken the advice of the Mimikatz Author to disable the Office vulnerability introduced by #follina. You've decided to block the \"ms-msdt\" driven diagnostics functionality.
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How would this advice \"Setup an AADJ’d PC for your environment and see what your experience is. Run through typical activities. What works? What doesn’t? Document your efforts and results then prioritize any gaps.\", capture the absence of this setting as a gap? Because if you do not capture it, unless I am mistaken, you're reintroducing the vulnerability by following this methodology.
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One of the things that is seldomly mentioned is the lack of an ability to patch during autopilot.
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You're delivering a system over the internet that will be used with an internet connection the minute the user logs on. Being able to deliver a fully patched system (Windows, Office / Microsoft Apps for enterprise, 3rd party apps), all of that should be patched prior to the user opening mail, browsing the web, or office documents or any of the other common infection vectors.
\n
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It's equally simple to suggest to look for meaningful settings, I've been asking for real analytics for quite a while now. What does meaningful mean? Going through 22 years of history to define meaningful is a big exercise for a ton of organizations.
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That being said, this is about the first time I've seen a public statement about the need for doing that rationalization effort instead of advocating to 'just' start over.
\n
As to the approach of just trying and see what works and doesn't work, it's not necessarily about working or non-working. The aim should be to deliver an at least equally secure (and productive) device to the end user. A lot of organizations can use help in making that a reality.
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As usual, Microsoft recommends a big paradigm shift before it's ready. AADJ is great, but it just has so many gaps. If a new technology does not have 99% fidelity with an older technology (and I'm not talking about deprecated or backwards-thinking features), then it's just not ready. And MS does this all the time. How long have we been hearing that WADS completely replaces MMCs? It doesn't. Not even close! Try looking through event logs (a very basic admin task) with WADS and tell me it's ready for primetime.
I know I know, HAADJ is the solution for this. But it's obviously clear MS wants us to cast off the old and embrace the new. Well, give us the tools then. Instead of getting us 65% of the way there, teasing new features, then chanting \"old way of thinking,\" give us what we need. Have you learned nothing from Azure Monitor (formerly Log Analytics, formerly OMS)? It's just *not good* and *not ready* nearly a decade on. And AADJ and WADS feel exactly the same way.
Alternatively, continue to invest in your legacy technologies instead of feature freezing them. There is no reason we don't have an easy tunneling technology for on-prem AD. There's just absolutely no reason for it. And I don't mean AOVPN, which works great when it works, but is complicated to set up and troubleshoot. Why not just have a simple and automatic, certificated based SYSVOL, Kerberos, and LDAP tunneling technology?
Why not fix the bugs in MMC?
Etc.
Come on, Microsoft, do better.
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